1 00:00:30,888 --> 00:00:32,906 Hello. 2 00:00:38,919 --> 00:00:40,818 It's just like Hollywood here. 3 00:01:13,127 --> 00:01:15,473 The anonymous viewer is back there, yeah? 4 00:01:26,055 --> 00:01:28,750 I mean if you're... 5 00:01:28,808 --> 00:01:31,470 Let's say you're standing in front of a group of people. 6 00:01:31,528 --> 00:01:36,590 Then it's best to reach them all at the same time. 7 00:01:37,448 --> 00:01:39,434 That's best. 8 00:01:39,495 --> 00:01:43,369 You have an idea of what's going on inside of people. 9 00:01:43,431 --> 00:01:47,916 Some people are very good at that. They have this special talent. 10 00:01:47,975 --> 00:01:50,605 For example, they walk into a room 11 00:01:50,663 --> 00:01:54,417 and can instantly sense the inner questions of everyone present. 12 00:01:56,455 --> 00:01:57,776 I mean it's... 13 00:02:01,288 --> 00:02:03,503 There's been a lot of that. 14 00:05:28,999 --> 00:05:30,385 That's it! 15 00:05:44,776 --> 00:05:46,096 <i>Beuys speaking.</i> 16 00:05:46,151 --> 00:05:49,457 <i>Good morning, Mr. Beuys. Good morning.</i> 17 00:05:49,511 --> 00:05:51,661 <i>Our colleague from</i> Midday Journal 18 00:05:51,719 --> 00:05:55,243 <i>to Professor Joseph Beuys.</i> 19 00:05:55,303 --> 00:05:59,537 <i>Mr. Beuys, how popular would you say you are?</i> 20 00:05:59,591 --> 00:06:05,548 <i>How should I know? What do you want me to say?</i> 21 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,910 <i>Do you wank me to say "Force 12" or something?</i> 22 00:06:08,967 --> 00:06:11,183 <i>Why not express it in wind force?</i> 23 00:06:11,239 --> 00:06:14,513 <i>All right, so I'd say I've reached the end of the scale,</i> 24 00:06:14,567 --> 00:06:16,913 <i>about hurricane force.</i> 25 00:06:16,967 --> 00:06:19,400 <i>And as you know, storm comes before hurricane.</i> 26 00:06:19,463 --> 00:06:21,449 <i>Mr. Beuys, thank you very much</i> 27 00:06:21,512 --> 00:06:23,149 <i>and I wish you continuing success.</i> 28 00:06:33,384 --> 00:06:36,494 <i>It was meant to be an event and that's what it is.</i> 29 00:06:36,551 --> 00:06:41,451 <i>A German event for New York. Beuys is here and everybody knows it.</i> 30 00:06:41,511 --> 00:06:44,687 <i>Joseph Beuys is exhibiting his art at the Guggenheim Museum</i> 31 00:06:44,743 --> 00:06:49,457 <i>and New York's press is doing all it can to help explain it.</i> 32 00:06:49,511 --> 00:06:54,890 ...that make fun of this whole idea of your being an artist. 33 00:06:54,951 --> 00:06:58,924 If we could realize these objectives... 34 00:06:58,983 --> 00:07:03,086 <i>Hanging, lying and standing on a 432-meter continuous ramp</i> 35 00:07:03,144 --> 00:07:06,417 <i>is almost his entire output of graphic art and sculpture.</i> 36 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,197 <i>Waiting upstairs are the felt-covered piano from 1966,</i> 37 00:07:13,255 --> 00:07:15,470 <i>as well as the "Fat Chair" and the "Honey Pump."</i> 38 00:07:20,711 --> 00:07:22,992 <i>"Forget the conventional idea of art.</i> 39 00:07:23,047 --> 00:07:24,717 <i>Anyone can be an artist.</i> 40 00:07:24,775 --> 00:07:28,616 <i>Anything can be art, especially anything that conserves energy."</i> 41 00:07:28,679 --> 00:07:30,632 <i>This is the shortcut formula for art.</i> 42 00:07:35,271 --> 00:07:37,519 Where Beuys is concerned, the basic philosophy 43 00:07:37,575 --> 00:07:42,409 is this attempt to demonstrate how far you can push sculpture 44 00:07:42,471 --> 00:07:44,970 as a means of communication. 45 00:07:45,032 --> 00:07:49,451 Not as sculpture itself, but as a vehicle for all these different themes. 46 00:07:52,647 --> 00:07:55,441 Well, it was an extraordinary feeling 47 00:07:55,495 --> 00:07:59,150 to meet someone of a different generation, a different nationality, 48 00:07:59,207 --> 00:08:01,455 a different background completely 49 00:08:01,511 --> 00:08:05,068 who felt so completely on the same wavelength. 50 00:08:08,071 --> 00:08:13,167 Just very, very extraordinary empathy... 51 00:08:14,503 --> 00:08:16,751 in language and ideas. 52 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,520 It was wonderful to be working with someone 53 00:08:21,575 --> 00:08:27,500 whose range of reference was so wide, you know. 54 00:08:29,127 --> 00:08:31,473 And he was at the top of what he wanted to do. 55 00:08:31,719 --> 00:08:33,706 He was riding the world. 56 00:08:33,767 --> 00:08:36,528 He was getting out beyond the reach of the fatal. 57 00:08:42,055 --> 00:08:45,361 <i>The magazine</i> Capital <i>named him Number 1</i> 58 00:08:45,415 --> 00:08:47,663 <i>in the international art business,</i> 59 00:08:47,719 --> 00:08:51,505 <i>ousting Warhol and Rauschenberg from the top positions.</i> 60 00:08:59,303 --> 00:09:02,064 <i>When did they let him out of the hospital? Do you know when?</i> 61 00:09:04,359 --> 00:09:06,957 <i>It's like the remnants of a construction site. I was disappointed.</i> 62 00:09:07,015 --> 00:09:10,343 It was fascinating. 63 00:09:10,407 --> 00:09:13,583 <i>The felt piano was more accessible than other objects.</i> 64 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:16,269 <i>For me, it's a new way of thinking about art.</i> 65 00:11:12,999 --> 00:11:16,426 ...- but it stays the same? - Right. You empty it. 66 00:11:16,486 --> 00:11:20,774 You drink the contents and throw away the cap. That's what's left. 67 00:11:20,839 --> 00:11:25,967 But you're aware that you're moving away from the traditional concept of art? 68 00:11:26,023 --> 00:11:30,028 Yes, of course... And you really don't care that people say, 69 00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:33,160 "What Beuys is doing has nothing to do with art." 70 00:11:33,223 --> 00:11:36,016 Or do you...? Of course I don't care. 71 00:11:36,071 --> 00:11:38,471 Art, yes, but in a totally different sense. 72 00:11:38,535 --> 00:11:42,223 The concept of what art is has expanded to such a degree 73 00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:44,941 that, for me, there's nothing left of it. 74 00:11:44,999 --> 00:11:48,109 But within a comprehensive system 75 00:11:48,166 --> 00:11:51,658 it's possible that a traditional concept of art 76 00:11:51,719 --> 00:11:54,512 might be able to keep its place, 77 00:11:54,567 --> 00:11:57,131 in a hermetically sealed form. 78 00:11:57,191 --> 00:11:59,374 It would circle around like an atom, 79 00:11:59,431 --> 00:12:01,068 somewhere inside this system. 80 00:12:01,127 --> 00:12:03,953 But the concept of art has been expanded so far 81 00:12:04,007 --> 00:12:06,123 that every normal situation is art. 82 00:12:06,183 --> 00:12:08,136 Every situation or action...? Yes. 83 00:12:08,199 --> 00:12:12,487 It's no longer an object that you hang on a wall... 84 00:12:25,351 --> 00:12:30,414 Now if one takes this position of an expanded concept of art, 85 00:12:30,471 --> 00:12:34,257 which is exactly my position anyway, 86 00:12:34,311 --> 00:12:37,966 most people will regard it as esoteric, 87 00:12:38,023 --> 00:12:41,809 insane, remote, 88 00:12:41,863 --> 00:12:45,453 marginal, peripheral... 89 00:12:45,511 --> 00:12:48,108 And so on and so forth. 90 00:12:48,167 --> 00:12:49,585 That's obvious. 91 00:13:29,703 --> 00:13:30,859 Mr. Beuys... 92 00:13:32,327 --> 00:13:36,048 At last year's art fair in Cologne, 93 00:13:36,102 --> 00:13:40,903 you exhibited a work that consisted of a Volkswagen bus... 94 00:13:42,279 --> 00:13:47,025 out of which are coming a large number... 95 00:13:47,079 --> 00:13:48,999 Maybe 20, correct me if I'm wrong... 96 00:13:49,063 --> 00:13:51,944 40! ...40 small sleds, 97 00:13:52,006 --> 00:13:55,247 all of them exactly the same, 98 00:13:55,302 --> 00:13:58,314 and I found it amusing. 99 00:13:58,374 --> 00:14:01,931 That isn't what I wanted to say... But that's good! 100 00:14:01,991 --> 00:14:04,872 No! But that's great! Why not? 101 00:14:04,935 --> 00:14:08,078 But... Do you want to stamp out laughter and fun, 102 00:14:08,134 --> 00:14:10,634 to have a revolution without laughter? 103 00:14:10,695 --> 00:14:15,758 - I have a specific question... - I want to get my money's worth out of this revolution! 104 00:14:15,814 --> 00:14:19,306 I believe you. 105 00:14:19,367 --> 00:14:21,800 Is that...? And I want others to get their money's worth! 106 00:14:21,863 --> 00:14:25,704 I believe you. But I want to ask you... 107 00:14:25,959 --> 00:14:29,135 Why didn't you use baby buggies? 108 00:14:31,335 --> 00:14:32,753 Why not? 109 00:14:34,758 --> 00:14:38,064 Because I chose the subject. 110 00:14:38,119 --> 00:14:41,294 You should do something with baby buggies! 111 00:14:42,950 --> 00:14:47,370 And see if you can make something that interests people! 112 00:14:54,503 --> 00:14:55,889 Max Bill... 113 00:14:57,863 --> 00:15:01,900 I agree with Mr. Beuys that we're here to think. 114 00:15:01,959 --> 00:15:04,686 But it's not necessary to think until daybreak. 115 00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:08,783 So... 116 00:15:09,830 --> 00:15:13,006 If we take what Picasso said, 117 00:15:13,062 --> 00:15:18,736 "The purpose of art is not to decorate our apartments, 118 00:15:18,791 --> 00:15:22,348 it's a weapon against the enemy." 119 00:15:23,847 --> 00:15:26,411 Who is the enemy? 120 00:16:25,447 --> 00:16:30,161 Professor Gehlen, you said the boundaries of art had expanded enormously 121 00:16:30,214 --> 00:16:34,219 and that you no longer feel provoked by art. 122 00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:37,738 Do you feel challenged by his works, 123 00:16:37,798 --> 00:16:40,657 or do you see his art, or anti-art, 124 00:16:40,711 --> 00:16:42,544 as a stimulating element? Or... 125 00:16:42,598 --> 00:16:45,709 What's my work got to do with anything? 126 00:16:45,766 --> 00:16:49,072 It's irrelevant. We're talking about a theory. 127 00:16:49,127 --> 00:16:52,269 We're talking about something far beyond my work. 128 00:16:52,327 --> 00:16:55,371 Let's throw my work out of the window! 129 00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:59,119 And your work as well! Maybe... 130 00:16:59,174 --> 00:17:03,888 - What is it you want? - I want to expand people's consciousness, 131 00:17:03,943 --> 00:17:07,467 especially regarding the current political situation. 132 00:17:07,527 --> 00:17:11,183 Okay... I don't believe we live in a democracy. 133 00:17:11,238 --> 00:17:13,999 I don't believe we're taught to be free human beings 134 00:17:14,055 --> 00:17:16,816 due to our party-political bureaucracy. 135 00:17:16,871 --> 00:17:20,809 - I'm willing to provoke right now! - Me, too! 136 00:17:20,871 --> 00:17:25,105 First of all, I want to return to the original topic. 137 00:17:25,159 --> 00:17:28,018 If you want to expand or change people's consciousness, 138 00:17:28,070 --> 00:17:30,024 - you must know in which direction. 139 00:17:30,279 --> 00:17:33,138 That's why I'm prepared to talk until daybreak. 140 00:17:33,191 --> 00:17:35,755 No, tell us now! Aha, in one sentence. 141 00:17:35,815 --> 00:17:38,095 Now! 142 00:17:38,151 --> 00:17:39,983 People don't understand you? 143 00:17:40,038 --> 00:17:43,879 I always say that people understand me very well. 144 00:17:43,942 --> 00:17:45,775 But they're afraid of it? No. 145 00:17:45,831 --> 00:17:48,624 But... But then we need to... 146 00:17:48,678 --> 00:17:51,504 It's not a bad thing if people get aggressive. 147 00:17:51,558 --> 00:17:52,879 Let them be aggressive. 148 00:17:54,438 --> 00:17:57,199 At least that gets you talking to them. 149 00:17:58,151 --> 00:18:00,137 You have to provoke it. 150 00:18:00,198 --> 00:18:03,210 Provocation always causes something to come alive. 151 00:18:03,271 --> 00:18:06,446 Maybe they smash their china at home. 152 00:18:07,878 --> 00:18:10,704 Or maybe they call me up on the phone. 153 00:18:10,758 --> 00:18:14,632 It always happens after I've been on TV, "Idiot!" 154 00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:22,312 They call you at home? Sure, whenever I've been on TV. 155 00:18:23,527 --> 00:18:24,683 "Asshole!" 156 00:18:28,583 --> 00:18:31,310 Yes... Just a second... 157 00:18:31,366 --> 00:18:34,988 For many people, art means the freedom of randomness, 158 00:18:35,047 --> 00:18:38,833 "Ah, art. I can do whatever I want." 159 00:18:38,887 --> 00:18:41,648 But what's the point of art if nothing comes of it? 160 00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:45,263 So whenever people ask me if I'm an artist, 161 00:18:45,318 --> 00:18:48,745 I say, "Oh, cut the crap." 162 00:18:48,999 --> 00:18:55,372 I'm not here to decorate these foul, moldering, stinking systems. 163 00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:58,125 I'm not an artist at all. 164 00:18:58,183 --> 00:19:01,871 Except if we say that everyone is an artist. 165 00:19:01,927 --> 00:19:04,906 I buy into that, but only then. 166 00:19:10,407 --> 00:19:15,339 I never said everyone is a poet, a painter, a sculptor. 167 00:19:15,398 --> 00:19:20,331 I mean social art when I say everyone is an artist. 168 00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:23,184 I find what you're saying to be terribly abstract and intellectual... 169 00:19:23,239 --> 00:19:24,941 No. 170 00:19:24,998 --> 00:19:28,326 I'm talking about the emergence of a new art 171 00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:34,119 where everyone not only can participate but must participate. 172 00:19:34,182 --> 00:19:36,102 He was a totally reasonable person, 173 00:19:36,166 --> 00:19:40,204 not at all strange or freakish. 174 00:19:40,262 --> 00:19:42,346 To me he was always totally reasonable. 175 00:19:42,406 --> 00:19:45,003 The opposite of what everyone else said. 176 00:19:45,062 --> 00:19:48,173 "Crazy," "strange," "peculiar." 177 00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:53,326 He was the first sane person I'd ever met. He was totally sane. 178 00:19:53,382 --> 00:19:58,477 And right after our first one-on-one conversation at <i>documenta</i>, I knew, 179 00:19:58,534 --> 00:20:00,269 "You can trust him completely." 180 00:20:01,478 --> 00:20:03,246 I thought that was great. 181 00:20:05,287 --> 00:20:07,403 It had nothing to do with his aura. 182 00:20:11,751 --> 00:20:17,840 I just thought he was someone who was surrounded and courted by people and... 183 00:20:25,382 --> 00:20:28,874 And then he had this incredible, instinctive self-assurance 184 00:20:28,935 --> 00:20:32,045 and this penetrating gaze. 185 00:20:33,318 --> 00:20:34,606 And... 186 00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:39,976 And a really sharp mind. 187 00:20:40,038 --> 00:20:44,326 You need both, otherwise there's no point. You're just a dreamer. 188 00:20:44,391 --> 00:20:48,745 But he wasn't. He was and he wasn't at the same time. 189 00:20:48,999 --> 00:20:51,182 I don't know how anyone can stand that. 190 00:20:58,726 --> 00:21:02,796 He was totally consistent in his words and actions. 191 00:21:02,854 --> 00:21:06,281 FOR THE DOCUMENTA 7,000 OAKS 192 00:21:06,342 --> 00:21:08,590 You're serious? 193 00:21:08,647 --> 00:21:13,197 If I say I'm going to plant 7,000 oaks, then I'm going to plant 7,000 oaks. 194 00:21:13,254 --> 00:21:17,291 I think the project will take at least three years. 195 00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:18,888 Thank you, Mr. Beuys. 196 00:21:33,734 --> 00:21:35,720 - You know this project? - Yeah. 197 00:21:35,783 --> 00:21:37,703 It started-- 198 00:21:37,959 --> 00:21:43,208 There is a small detail and illustrates a little bit my understanding of art. 199 00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:49,031 I was invited very often to the <i>documenta.</i> 200 00:21:53,767 --> 00:21:55,785 I was already invited in the '60s. 201 00:21:55,846 --> 00:21:58,508 I participated with a sculpture. 202 00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:02,353 <i>How would you help someone who's dumbfounded by your work</i> 203 00:22:02,407 --> 00:22:04,458 <i>to understand it better?</i> 204 00:22:04,518 --> 00:22:08,359 <i>I would show him the two utensils, a spoon and a fork,</i> 205 00:22:08,423 --> 00:22:10,801 <i>and invite him to eat the object.</i> 206 00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:15,918 Then I was again invited in 1972. 207 00:22:17,606 --> 00:22:19,822 So I told them, "Yes, it's very nice to be invited, 208 00:22:19,878 --> 00:22:21,711 but I will not bring a work of art." 209 00:22:23,590 --> 00:22:26,918 I'll bring the organization for direct democracy. 210 00:22:26,982 --> 00:22:29,033 During the 100 days of the <i>documenta,</i> 211 00:22:29,094 --> 00:22:31,953 you're spending 10 hours a day here in your office. 212 00:22:32,006 --> 00:22:35,563 You speak with everyone, you answer every question... 213 00:22:35,622 --> 00:22:39,408 There was an office, just daily, permanently discussions, 214 00:22:39,462 --> 00:22:44,263 and permanently seminars on the necessity to change the system. 215 00:22:44,326 --> 00:22:46,542 But there was no artwork at all. 216 00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:56,297 <i>At the heart of the</i> documenta, <i>several hectoliters of bee honey</i> 217 00:22:56,358 --> 00:22:59,021 <i>pulsate through an extensive system of veins.</i> 218 00:22:59,078 --> 00:23:02,188 <i>"The Honey Pump in the Workplace."</i> 219 00:23:13,703 --> 00:23:17,096 And now, the last <i>documenta,</i> again I was invited. 220 00:23:17,158 --> 00:23:20,431 So I said, "No, I'm not even interested to go into the building. 221 00:23:20,679 --> 00:23:23,057 I'll go completely outside in town. 222 00:23:25,158 --> 00:23:28,519 I will work with the people in Kassel and plant 7,000 oaks." 223 00:23:42,982 --> 00:23:45,383 The 7,000 trees in Kassel each have a rock, 224 00:23:46,343 --> 00:23:48,721 so it's a tree monument. 225 00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:55,824 Every tree has a kind of opposite pole. 226 00:23:58,438 --> 00:24:02,094 The tree keeps growing taller, the rock stays as it is. 227 00:24:04,262 --> 00:24:07,372 I wanted to juxtapose these two things. 228 00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:09,197 So that over the course of time... 229 00:24:10,726 --> 00:24:12,843 the proportions change constantly. 230 00:24:29,894 --> 00:24:32,208 AN IDEA IS TAKING ROOT 231 00:24:32,262 --> 00:24:34,346 SET YOUR ROCK ROLLING 232 00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:37,457 If you take the <i>7,000 Oaks,</i> 233 00:24:37,510 --> 00:24:42,376 which is one of the most incredible works of the 20th century, 234 00:24:42,438 --> 00:24:47,119 Beuys assumed that all these people who had a commercial interest in him, 235 00:24:47,174 --> 00:24:51,147 who had bought his work or were living from his work 236 00:24:51,206 --> 00:24:55,211 as gallerists, in the buying and selling of it, 237 00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:58,926 that they would contribute massively to this huge project. 238 00:24:58,982 --> 00:25:02,572 Seven thousand oaks, you know, and the stones. 239 00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:05,838 That's a lot of capital and a lot of ongoing costs. 240 00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:17,064 His trips to Japan trying to raise the money for that-- that project, 241 00:25:17,126 --> 00:25:19,407 they were very intense in those times. 242 00:25:22,118 --> 00:25:26,123 He did say about the trip to Japan, you know, they really wanted their money's worth. 243 00:25:26,182 --> 00:25:28,561 Business, take one. "A" mark. 244 00:25:28,614 --> 00:25:29,519 Action! 245 00:25:36,742 --> 00:25:39,405 He did advertisements for whiskey. 246 00:25:39,462 --> 00:25:41,895 He did endless lectures. 247 00:25:45,926 --> 00:25:48,938 Still anything to sign? 248 00:26:04,262 --> 00:26:06,859 Well, I think, uh-- 249 00:26:06,918 --> 00:26:12,166 How do you see yourself as a, in one way, critic of the system, 250 00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:17,063 and another way, also like any other person, participant in the system. 251 00:26:17,318 --> 00:26:19,272 'Cause I think it's, uh-- 252 00:26:19,334 --> 00:26:24,299 No, it's not my role to criticize. My role is to give examples. 253 00:26:24,358 --> 00:26:28,908 Because most of the artists are not interested to struggle. 254 00:26:28,966 --> 00:26:32,272 Just to come through with another understanding of art, 255 00:26:32,325 --> 00:26:37,094 which is related to everybody's working place, 256 00:26:37,158 --> 00:26:39,788 to everybody's problem. 257 00:26:39,846 --> 00:26:45,193 There is no theory developed within the artists and within the art. 258 00:26:45,254 --> 00:26:48,647 Also not within the art critics. 259 00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:53,293 Leave away the galleries, which are only caring for a kind of transfer. 260 00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:57,769 Let's say market processes and so on. 261 00:26:57,830 --> 00:27:03,559 So I see there is no really organic development of art 262 00:27:03,622 --> 00:27:04,876 in our society. 263 00:27:06,054 --> 00:27:09,578 Until the art and the artists 264 00:27:09,638 --> 00:27:13,162 don't develop another theory, 265 00:27:13,222 --> 00:27:16,103 which is, uh-- 266 00:27:16,166 --> 00:27:19,276 which describes the future society 267 00:27:19,334 --> 00:27:24,680 beyond capitalistic and communistic systems... 268 00:27:26,438 --> 00:27:28,752 until then, there is no hope 269 00:27:28,806 --> 00:27:32,233 to discuss in an interesting way 270 00:27:32,294 --> 00:27:38,121 the role of the art and what the structure of the art in society. 271 00:27:47,974 --> 00:27:50,090 Well, I must say, Joseph, 272 00:27:50,150 --> 00:27:53,739 and that will last to the next <i>documenta.</i> 273 00:27:53,798 --> 00:27:56,362 - It may last forever. - Forever. 274 00:28:03,462 --> 00:28:06,823 And when the last stone will disappear from this place, 275 00:28:06,886 --> 00:28:10,345 it says the last of the 7,000 oaks is planted. 276 00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:45,481 7,000 OAKS 277 00:28:47,494 --> 00:28:53,004 I'd like to talk a little more about another one of your influences, 278 00:28:53,062 --> 00:28:55,855 your biography, your life. 279 00:28:55,910 --> 00:28:58,027 If I understand correctly, 280 00:28:58,086 --> 00:29:02,986 it's more than just a personal affair for you. 281 00:29:03,045 --> 00:29:06,253 What does your personal story have to do with your art? 282 00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:11,176 Is your art as autobiographical as is sometimes claimed? 283 00:29:11,237 --> 00:29:14,216 You're originally from Kleve. Yeah. 284 00:29:14,278 --> 00:29:17,802 You're the son of a civil servant 285 00:29:17,862 --> 00:29:21,004 who went on to own a fertilizer business, I believe. 286 00:29:21,062 --> 00:29:24,750 So you weren't really predestined to be an artist, 287 00:29:24,806 --> 00:29:27,567 especially not with your family background. 288 00:29:27,622 --> 00:29:29,521 That's right, I wasn't. 289 00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:42,056 My parents would've preferred me to work in the margarine factory in Kleve. 290 00:29:42,118 --> 00:29:46,286 Why did they want you to work in the margarine factory? 291 00:29:46,342 --> 00:29:49,518 Because it was the easiest way to get a good job, 292 00:29:49,574 --> 00:29:51,757 because it was on a par with being a civil servant. 293 00:29:53,862 --> 00:29:56,492 My parents wanted me to go there because they thought, 294 00:29:56,550 --> 00:29:58,470 "Whatever will become of him?" 295 00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:48,489 But he did say he felt like a stranger 296 00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:50,120 in his parents' house. 297 00:30:50,182 --> 00:30:52,168 There was something missing there. 298 00:30:59,013 --> 00:31:03,367 He felt no warmth there, not even toward his mother. 299 00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:04,750 Not really... 300 00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:11,143 Theirs was a purely pragmatic relationship... 301 00:31:11,206 --> 00:31:14,087 That's how I imagine it, knowing him. 302 00:31:19,302 --> 00:31:22,575 But what he felt deep down, that was something else. 303 00:31:31,974 --> 00:31:36,328 He said that his parents rather neglected him, 304 00:31:36,390 --> 00:31:38,922 that they left him to his own devices. 305 00:31:38,981 --> 00:31:42,506 But instead of being sad about it, 306 00:31:42,758 --> 00:31:45,323 he was proud of it. 307 00:31:45,382 --> 00:31:48,176 It says a lot about him. 308 00:31:48,229 --> 00:31:50,608 That's normally seen as a flaw, 309 00:31:51,878 --> 00:31:54,540 but for him it was a source of strength, 310 00:31:54,597 --> 00:31:57,805 being left alone, being free, going off into the fields. 311 00:33:13,061 --> 00:33:16,967 Hasn't your appearance also become something of a cliché? 312 00:33:17,030 --> 00:33:20,358 Your famous hat, for example? Yes. 313 00:33:20,422 --> 00:33:23,946 Does the hat have a protective function, 314 00:33:24,006 --> 00:33:26,636 or is it simply a trademark? 315 00:33:26,693 --> 00:33:28,941 It also has a protective function. 316 00:33:28,998 --> 00:33:31,530 So you protect your head with it. 317 00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:34,831 Yes, I protect my head. 318 00:33:35,078 --> 00:33:39,116 You were seriously wounded several times during the war. 319 00:33:39,173 --> 00:33:40,559 And you once... Correct. 320 00:33:40,614 --> 00:33:43,472 ...crashed with your plane, in '43. Yes. 321 00:33:43,718 --> 00:33:46,031 And you said, 322 00:33:46,086 --> 00:33:48,105 "It's been drafty up there ever since. 323 00:33:48,165 --> 00:33:51,406 Actually, I've got a screw loose." Correct. 324 00:33:51,461 --> 00:33:54,669 I also said that I was shot into shape. 325 00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:50,281 Do you remember the crash, 326 00:34:50,342 --> 00:34:51,946 or did it happen so quickly that...? 327 00:34:55,269 --> 00:34:59,241 I remember the plane going down. 328 00:35:00,806 --> 00:35:04,876 I said, "Let's get out, let's jump." 329 00:35:04,933 --> 00:35:09,221 So there were other people in the plane? Yes, one other man. 330 00:35:13,509 --> 00:35:16,455 And he died? There was nothing left of him. 331 00:35:18,502 --> 00:35:23,052 Apart from a few pieces of bone, everything was... 332 00:35:33,381 --> 00:35:35,084 Yes, well... 333 00:35:35,141 --> 00:35:40,303 I remember hearing the voices of the Tatars. 334 00:35:40,357 --> 00:35:43,817 I remember them finding me and standing around me. 335 00:35:44,933 --> 00:35:46,952 But then I lost consciousness. 336 00:35:51,590 --> 00:35:55,212 All the things I remember happened when I was only partly conscious, 337 00:35:55,269 --> 00:36:00,300 because I didn't regain consciousness for about 12 days. 338 00:36:00,357 --> 00:36:03,435 When I came to, I was in a German hospital in the Crimea. 339 00:36:11,173 --> 00:36:13,836 I'd like to ask you about that war period 340 00:36:13,893 --> 00:36:16,425 and how it began to manifest itself in works of art. 341 00:36:18,341 --> 00:36:23,470 When I was wounded very heavily, that such tribes found me, 342 00:36:23,526 --> 00:36:28,523 and belabored my body with this kind of fat. 343 00:36:28,582 --> 00:36:32,423 So they took me out of this crash heap 344 00:36:32,678 --> 00:36:34,827 of crashed airplane, 345 00:36:34,886 --> 00:36:37,450 brought me into a felt tent 346 00:36:37,509 --> 00:36:42,507 wrapped me with a kind of fat and tallow as an ointment to keep me warm. 347 00:36:42,566 --> 00:36:47,279 Is that true? True? It's an event during the war. 348 00:36:48,773 --> 00:36:51,239 Do you fantasize? 349 00:36:54,373 --> 00:36:58,989 I mean, one shouldn't mix this thing, because fantasy itself is very positive. 350 00:36:59,046 --> 00:37:02,702 It doesn't matter. It's only his interpretation of it anyway. 351 00:37:04,517 --> 00:37:07,823 You don't fantasize. Was that the answer? 352 00:37:51,973 --> 00:37:55,759 And I think the philosophy of <i>Zeige define Wunde</i> 353 00:37:55,813 --> 00:37:58,508 is at the very core of Beuys's work. 354 00:37:58,566 --> 00:38:01,065 And you can look at it in many different levels. 355 00:38:01,125 --> 00:38:07,149 First of all, the wound of having separated instinct and logic 356 00:38:07,206 --> 00:38:08,908 in our mentality. 357 00:38:08,965 --> 00:38:11,693 We're all wounded by that split, you know? 358 00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:14,860 And he often used the double images. 359 00:38:14,917 --> 00:38:17,645 It shouldn't be literally interpreted. 360 00:38:17,701 --> 00:38:21,488 But, you know, somewhere thinking about that. 361 00:38:21,541 --> 00:38:27,368 And then going back in his own autobiography, the experience of the war. 362 00:38:27,429 --> 00:38:29,545 Not the literal wound. 363 00:38:29,798 --> 00:38:32,046 You recover from a literal wound, 364 00:38:32,101 --> 00:38:36,171 but coming back home to a totally devastated country. 365 00:39:05,925 --> 00:39:08,205 ACADEMY OF ARTS 366 00:39:44,741 --> 00:39:47,087 Beuys was a very slim, 367 00:39:48,197 --> 00:39:51,689 very skinny young man... 368 00:39:53,381 --> 00:39:56,327 with a face that you never forgot. 369 00:39:58,181 --> 00:40:02,502 It was somewhat deformed as a result of one of the crashes. 370 00:40:02,565 --> 00:40:06,471 He'd suffered a broken nose as well as injuries to his skull. 371 00:40:07,493 --> 00:40:09,894 And... 372 00:40:09,957 --> 00:40:12,140 But he was a man with tremendous charisma, 373 00:40:12,197 --> 00:40:14,663 who radiated a tremendous warmth. 374 00:40:50,021 --> 00:40:53,414 KLEVE, FEBRUARY 28,1957 375 00:40:56,678 --> 00:41:03,017 "After not having visited Beuys for a long time, I called on him today. 376 00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:08,361 He was going through another phase 377 00:41:08,421 --> 00:41:13,419 of neither washing nor putting on any clothes. 378 00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:18,470 He's abandoning himself more and more, 379 00:41:18,533 --> 00:41:21,032 as an artist too. 380 00:41:24,645 --> 00:41:27,755 How often he weeps, 381 00:41:27,813 --> 00:41:32,494 says he's going to leave, go somewhere, forever." 382 00:42:01,477 --> 00:42:05,198 It probably had something to do 383 00:42:05,253 --> 00:42:08,134 with the fact that he was undernourished. 384 00:42:10,149 --> 00:42:13,771 And also with his total lack of success. 385 00:42:19,461 --> 00:42:20,552 In any event, 386 00:42:21,445 --> 00:42:23,628 that was the... 387 00:42:25,285 --> 00:42:28,297 That was the time 388 00:42:28,357 --> 00:42:31,979 when he sank into the quagmire of his own inner misery. 389 00:42:54,405 --> 00:43:00,940 "The chief resident spoke about the examination in Essen. 390 00:43:00,997 --> 00:43:05,962 As I understood it, he'd diagnosed Beuys as being incurable." 391 00:43:18,373 --> 00:43:20,719 He stayed there all summer. 392 00:43:20,773 --> 00:43:22,890 He stayed in my room, 393 00:43:23,749 --> 00:43:25,833 and when he was... 394 00:43:27,621 --> 00:43:32,269 When he was depressed, he hardly responded. 395 00:43:32,325 --> 00:43:36,111 And during the worst periods, he hardly ever left his room, 396 00:43:36,165 --> 00:43:38,184 not even for a meal. 397 00:43:39,461 --> 00:43:41,098 And on his better days... 398 00:43:43,045 --> 00:43:47,115 he'd spend the whole day outside with us from morning till evening, 399 00:43:47,173 --> 00:43:48,875 in the meadows or fields. 400 00:44:29,477 --> 00:44:31,790 And then we told him 401 00:44:31,845 --> 00:44:34,158 he should do something again, at all costs. 402 00:44:34,213 --> 00:44:36,678 He said, "I'm finished with art. 403 00:44:37,957 --> 00:44:40,587 I don't want anything more to do with it." 404 00:44:43,621 --> 00:44:47,756 I said, "You can't carry on like this." 405 00:44:47,813 --> 00:44:53,902 And then my mother went up to his room and knocked on the door, "Mr. Beuys?" 406 00:44:53,957 --> 00:44:57,383 But Mr. Beuys didn't want to come out, and she said, 407 00:44:57,637 --> 00:45:02,089 "I want to talk to you, open the door," which he did. 408 00:45:02,149 --> 00:45:06,251 And then she appealed to his conscience. 409 00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:08,808 And she told him 410 00:45:08,869 --> 00:45:13,190 that his gift was also an obligation, a duty 411 00:45:13,252 --> 00:45:15,598 toward the spirit that had given him that gift. 412 00:46:06,916 --> 00:46:08,717 After you graduated from art school, 413 00:46:08,773 --> 00:46:13,061 you withdrew to the countryside for ten years. 414 00:46:13,124 --> 00:46:14,859 Yes, I didn't feel the need 415 00:46:14,917 --> 00:46:16,684 to be part of the contemporary art scene. 416 00:46:19,429 --> 00:46:24,045 When did you decide to start doing performance art? 417 00:46:24,101 --> 00:46:27,243 I think it developed quite organically 418 00:46:27,301 --> 00:46:32,233 from my aim to expand the boundaries of art. 419 00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:22,666 Beuys had to create a basis for himself 420 00:47:22,725 --> 00:47:25,190 in order to overcome this crisis. 421 00:47:25,253 --> 00:47:28,330 He needed a pedestal to stand on, 422 00:47:28,389 --> 00:47:29,993 rather like the Archimedean point, 423 00:47:30,053 --> 00:47:32,879 "Give me a place to stand and I'll move the Earth." 424 00:47:41,125 --> 00:47:43,722 But it was also a spiritual basis... 425 00:47:45,253 --> 00:47:47,686 his theory of "social sculpture." 426 00:47:50,885 --> 00:47:55,631 How he did that, it's something I... 427 00:47:55,685 --> 00:47:59,526 "How is a figure, a form created?" 428 00:47:59,588 --> 00:48:02,120 "Where does the form come from? What is form?" 429 00:48:10,148 --> 00:48:11,883 Yes, that's interesting. 430 00:48:14,981 --> 00:48:18,702 Certainly, when I began... 431 00:48:18,757 --> 00:48:21,703 And I'm referring to my drawings again... 432 00:48:21,764 --> 00:48:25,256 I was actually... How can I put it? 433 00:48:25,316 --> 00:48:27,236 I was feeling my way around. 434 00:48:28,388 --> 00:48:31,432 I was groping about. 435 00:48:31,493 --> 00:48:35,530 Almost as if I was in the dark, you might say. 436 00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:38,568 I had to touch something... 437 00:48:40,676 --> 00:48:42,477 and often had to lay it down... 438 00:48:43,781 --> 00:48:48,298 and examine it myself and see 439 00:48:48,356 --> 00:48:53,834 if what I'd created might be of interest to anyone at all. 440 00:48:55,332 --> 00:48:59,567 But, above all, whether what I'd created interested me. 441 00:49:13,604 --> 00:49:15,852 My choice of materials 442 00:49:15,909 --> 00:49:19,914 doesn't initially come from a painterly impulse, 443 00:49:19,972 --> 00:49:22,220 it comes from the wish to create sculpture. 444 00:49:28,580 --> 00:49:30,348 These materials appeared at a time 445 00:49:30,405 --> 00:49:35,599 when I was trying to break down the term "sculpture" into its components. 446 00:49:39,621 --> 00:49:43,277 And felt appeared as an insulating element 447 00:49:43,332 --> 00:49:45,995 within the three configurations of sculpture: 448 00:49:46,052 --> 00:49:48,879 undetermined, determined and movement. 449 00:49:51,397 --> 00:49:54,408 The simplest thing in the world, 450 00:49:54,469 --> 00:49:58,539 when describing the process of a production, 451 00:49:58,597 --> 00:50:00,037 is called... 452 00:50:02,597 --> 00:50:04,997 "undetermined starting point..." 453 00:50:09,637 --> 00:50:12,518 "momentum" and "form." 454 00:50:15,493 --> 00:50:17,959 FAT CORNER 455 00:50:25,093 --> 00:50:30,090 Fat was the ideal material for showing states of chaotic... 456 00:50:32,292 --> 00:50:34,027 condition... 457 00:50:35,333 --> 00:50:40,363 for showing movement and the principle of form. 458 00:50:44,420 --> 00:50:48,359 The principle of form appears as a "fat corner" in a room. 459 00:50:56,709 --> 00:51:00,266 In the fat, you have an ideal opportunity 460 00:51:00,517 --> 00:51:04,391 to show the components of the sculpture through the performance. 461 00:51:06,661 --> 00:51:09,422 But I'm referring to sculpture not as a static element, 462 00:51:09,476 --> 00:51:12,335 but as a universal one. 463 00:51:31,621 --> 00:51:36,683 I'd like to come back to this idea of rationale. 464 00:51:36,741 --> 00:51:40,876 If you make your "fat corners," for example... 465 00:51:40,933 --> 00:51:44,806 - Yes. - ...then you think about making them beforehand. 466 00:51:44,869 --> 00:51:46,887 They don't appear on their own, 467 00:51:46,949 --> 00:51:49,895 without a rationale, without thought. 468 00:51:49,956 --> 00:51:52,586 The fat doesn't get into the corner on its own. 469 00:51:52,645 --> 00:51:58,286 Correct! All right, that's what you think. But I can't be so impatient. 470 00:51:58,340 --> 00:52:00,654 Maybe you can allow yourself to be. 471 00:52:00,708 --> 00:52:03,273 All I can say is that it's no longer possible 472 00:52:03,332 --> 00:52:05,994 to talk about sculpture in a conventional sense, 473 00:52:06,052 --> 00:52:08,071 as if one knew what it was. 474 00:52:08,132 --> 00:52:11,973 "A sculpture is something that stands there, like a coat rack. 475 00:52:12,036 --> 00:52:14,469 It's spatial, you can put a hat on it..." 476 00:52:14,533 --> 00:52:17,893 I've tried to apply the term to people, 477 00:52:17,957 --> 00:52:22,540 so that the things I find in sculpture I can find in people too. 478 00:52:22,596 --> 00:52:26,503 That's right. You might laugh and think how irrelevant that is. 479 00:52:26,564 --> 00:52:28,266 But I've done it! 480 00:52:43,877 --> 00:52:48,427 And now we come to another concept that plays an important part. 481 00:52:48,485 --> 00:52:53,384 I suggest that the first product of human creativity is thought, 482 00:52:53,444 --> 00:52:57,165 and that because of this, thought itself is sculpture. 483 00:52:57,221 --> 00:53:00,014 Thoughts affect the world. 484 00:53:00,068 --> 00:53:04,040 THOUGHT = SCULPTURE "FREEDOM" 485 00:53:20,196 --> 00:53:22,575 <i>Düsseldorf Academy of Arts.</i> 486 00:53:22,628 --> 00:53:25,007 <i>- A demon is destroying</i>- 487 00:53:25,061 --> 00:53:28,105 <i>Joseph Beuys, professor and sculptor.</i> 488 00:53:28,357 --> 00:53:33,223 <i>He uses the academy to carry his ideas out into society.</i> 489 00:53:33,284 --> 00:53:37,387 Fundamentally, every human being can be creative 490 00:53:37,445 --> 00:53:42,126 if an opportunity is created for him or her to be able to be creative. 491 00:53:43,876 --> 00:53:46,059 That's the question of equal opportunity in education. 492 00:53:49,188 --> 00:53:52,909 <i>Here, a professor is putting his concept of art into action,</i> 493 00:53:52,964 --> 00:53:55,364 <i>a concept that breaks out of the aesthetic realm</i> 494 00:53:55,429 --> 00:53:57,229 <i>and applies to all areas of life.</i> 495 00:54:04,996 --> 00:54:09,677 You have to ask yourself how we've arrived at this sorry state of affairs, 496 00:54:09,733 --> 00:54:11,981 what's causing these ills? 497 00:54:12,036 --> 00:54:16,717 We're forced to use everything at our disposal. 498 00:54:16,772 --> 00:54:19,816 In that sense, it looks like a... 499 00:54:19,876 --> 00:54:23,303 Beuys' class had a high profile 500 00:54:23,364 --> 00:54:27,205 and was very much tailored to Beuys himself. 501 00:54:27,269 --> 00:54:32,714 And I was one of the worst, I was a true disciple of Beuys, 502 00:54:32,773 --> 00:54:37,007 and that's the worst thing that can happen at any art academy, 503 00:54:37,061 --> 00:54:42,888 when, instead of wanting to do their own thing, 504 00:54:42,948 --> 00:54:47,465 the students fall into line with a particular idea. 505 00:54:47,525 --> 00:54:49,925 If that happens at an academy of art... 506 00:54:49,988 --> 00:54:52,869 An is very sensitive in that respect, 507 00:54:52,933 --> 00:54:55,148 because it stinks of ideology from the get-go. 508 00:55:00,292 --> 00:55:04,101 There certainly are people who have a great affinity with my ideas, 509 00:55:04,357 --> 00:55:07,717 but they aren't we work together. 510 00:55:58,821 --> 00:56:02,094 Beuys was with us in the class from morning till evening. 511 00:56:04,036 --> 00:56:06,251 There had never been anything like it at the academy. 512 00:56:09,284 --> 00:56:13,190 When he was talking to someone, critiquing their work, for example, 513 00:56:13,252 --> 00:56:16,613 he always found a new point that had to be worked on. 514 00:56:16,676 --> 00:56:20,462 And you'd be thinking, "Let's go get a coffee, for God's sake," 515 00:56:20,516 --> 00:56:22,186 but he'd go on and on. 516 00:56:26,596 --> 00:56:29,324 Do you distinguish between Beuys the artist 517 00:56:29,380 --> 00:56:30,504 and Beuys the teacher? 518 00:56:30,757 --> 00:56:32,197 No, not at all. 519 00:56:34,628 --> 00:56:37,869 And that's exactly what's most important to me. 520 00:56:39,524 --> 00:56:41,510 I've said again and again that... 521 00:56:42,884 --> 00:56:45,132 that I see this kind of work 522 00:56:45,188 --> 00:56:49,510 as a product of art. 523 00:56:49,572 --> 00:56:54,373 <i>Friday, April 28, 10:30 a.m.</i> 524 00:56:54,436 --> 00:56:57,033 <i>Joseph Beuys outlines his latest project.</i> 525 00:56:58,244 --> 00:57:00,939 What I'd like to do 526 00:57:00,996 --> 00:57:04,040 is create a kind of cultural center here in Dusseldorf 527 00:57:04,101 --> 00:57:06,763 that can be interesting for the whole world, 528 00:57:06,820 --> 00:57:08,588 as a meeting point. 529 00:57:08,644 --> 00:57:12,300 Then I'd like to create a second tier: 530 00:57:12,356 --> 00:57:15,946 the permanent presentation of artists from all around the world... 531 00:57:23,557 --> 00:57:25,477 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 532 00:57:25,540 --> 00:57:27,918 No, no, no, no, no. 533 00:57:27,972 --> 00:57:29,674 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 534 00:57:30,596 --> 00:57:33,193 No, no, no, no, no. 535 00:57:33,252 --> 00:57:36,296 Chinese artists, Russian artists, Hungarian artists, 536 00:57:36,356 --> 00:57:40,972 American artists, Finnish artists, and so on. 537 00:57:41,028 --> 00:57:46,757 So that we can overcome the problem of the art market 538 00:57:46,820 --> 00:57:48,740 by utilizing the time factor. 539 00:57:48,804 --> 00:57:54,347 But there were some professors there who took offense at Beuys. 540 00:57:54,404 --> 00:57:56,903 Because, with his concept of freedom, 541 00:57:57,157 --> 00:58:01,194 he'd hit a raw nerve 542 00:58:01,252 --> 00:58:06,053 by, without necessarily wanting to, making his colleagues look bad. 543 00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:10,054 Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 544 00:58:10,116 --> 00:58:12,233 No, no, no, no, no. 545 00:58:12,292 --> 00:58:15,751 He'd hit a raw nerve by basically saying: 546 00:58:15,812 --> 00:58:18,027 "You're artists, this is about art. 547 00:58:18,277 --> 00:58:21,768 Art is total freedom and self-determination. 548 00:58:21,828 --> 00:58:24,043 And what are you? Civil servants." 549 00:58:44,804 --> 00:58:49,354 I want to draw people's attention to misguided policies, 550 00:58:49,412 --> 00:58:54,125 and I'm no longer interested in causing trouble at the academy. 551 00:58:54,180 --> 00:58:58,086 I want to inform people about the true culprits in our system. 552 00:58:58,148 --> 00:59:00,264 I want to inform and educate people. 553 00:59:05,380 --> 00:59:08,490 That's the idea people often laugh at me for: 554 00:59:08,548 --> 00:59:10,632 "Can sculpture change the world?" 555 00:59:18,884 --> 00:59:20,968 JOSEPH BEUYS & ABRAHAM DAVID CHRISTIAN 556 00:59:21,028 --> 00:59:24,553 DIRECT DEMOCRACY VIA REFERENDA 557 00:59:58,276 --> 01:00:00,654 The <i>documenta</i> was over, 558 01:00:00,708 --> 01:00:03,370 and the new semester began the next day. 559 01:00:03,428 --> 01:00:07,715 All the bigwigs from the government of North Rhine-Westphalia were invited. 560 01:00:09,028 --> 01:00:13,775 And Joseph Beuys stood up in front of them 561 01:00:13,828 --> 01:00:17,637 and made a speech to them in grunts. 562 01:00:54,116 --> 01:00:57,291 I don't think it would've occurred to anyone to laugh. 563 01:00:57,348 --> 01:01:00,676 It was too dangerous. 564 01:01:35,300 --> 01:01:37,132 IS THIS THE CHOP FOR ART PROFESSOR BEUYS? 565 01:01:37,188 --> 01:01:39,054 EIGHT COLLEAGUES MUTINY AGAINST HIM 566 01:01:39,108 --> 01:01:40,941 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 567 01:01:40,996 --> 01:01:42,185 TROUBLE WITH BEUYS 568 01:01:42,244 --> 01:01:43,466 No, no, no, no. 569 01:01:43,716 --> 01:01:45,702 I protested against the situation 570 01:01:45,764 --> 01:01:50,412 that 500 people were demanding an educational place 571 01:01:50,468 --> 01:01:52,901 where they could develop their abilities, 572 01:01:52,963 --> 01:01:55,910 and the state says, "No. We can only take ten. 573 01:01:55,972 --> 01:01:57,772 So make a selection." 574 01:01:57,828 --> 01:02:02,115 And so the professors took the students, heaps of things, 575 01:02:02,180 --> 01:02:05,126 Look, oh, not interested. 576 01:02:05,188 --> 01:02:06,923 Ah. 577 01:02:08,292 --> 01:02:11,118 And I took every student into my class. 578 01:02:11,172 --> 01:02:14,958 Which resulted I had about 400 students in my class. 579 01:02:15,012 --> 01:02:16,998 But that was a big riot. 580 01:02:17,060 --> 01:02:19,526 For the state it was a riot. 581 01:02:24,996 --> 01:02:28,139 <i>Students at the Academy of Arts in Düsseldorf</i> 582 01:02:28,196 --> 01:02:32,331 <i>demonstrate for one of their teachers, Professor Joseph Beuys.</i> 583 01:02:32,388 --> 01:02:34,701 NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS 584 01:02:36,644 --> 01:02:39,787 How do you judge the general situation at the academy? 585 01:02:39,844 --> 01:02:41,612 It's pretty chaotic. 586 01:02:41,668 --> 01:02:43,752 But we didn't cause this chaos, 587 01:02:43,812 --> 01:02:48,046 it was those in authority in the cultural bureaucracy. 588 01:03:04,611 --> 01:03:06,859 Let's talk about what happened. 589 01:03:06,916 --> 01:03:12,590 Along with 54 applicants who'd been turned down by the academy, 590 01:03:12,643 --> 01:03:14,411 you occupied its offices. 591 01:03:14,467 --> 01:03:18,188 What did you hope to achieve by this? 592 01:03:18,244 --> 01:03:21,288 I wanted to very calmly see to it 593 01:03:21,348 --> 01:03:24,042 that these students, who already attend my class, 594 01:03:24,100 --> 01:03:25,159 should be enrolled. 595 01:03:31,332 --> 01:03:34,191 On October 5, we were informed 596 01:03:34,244 --> 01:03:38,379 that it was Professor Beuys' intention, 597 01:03:38,436 --> 01:03:41,960 as of October 10, 598 01:03:42,020 --> 01:03:44,813 to remain in the academy's offices for a prolonged duration. 599 01:03:53,571 --> 01:03:59,279 The letter to Mr. Beuys, which was written by proxy for the undersecretary, 600 01:03:59,331 --> 01:04:02,059 had been agreed on by me, 601 01:04:02,115 --> 01:04:06,283 and in it, it was pointed out to Professor Beuys 602 01:04:06,340 --> 01:04:11,141 that, in spite of our sympathy for his personal style, 603 01:04:11,203 --> 01:04:16,615 we could not accept unlawful acts 604 01:04:16,676 --> 01:04:21,226 and that his status as a state employee was in question. 605 01:04:42,628 --> 01:04:44,679 NO REPLACEMENT FOR BEUYS 606 01:04:44,740 --> 01:04:50,251 The Minister for Science has dismissed you without prior notice for "trespassing." 607 01:04:50,308 --> 01:04:54,247 Do you think the Minister will revoke your dismissal? 608 01:04:54,307 --> 01:04:58,213 I don't think so. Maybe. I'll leave it open. 609 01:04:58,276 --> 01:05:00,262 He could at least have talked to me, 610 01:05:00,516 --> 01:05:02,502 in my opinion. 611 01:05:02,564 --> 01:05:04,942 Why let something happen 612 01:05:04,996 --> 01:05:08,455 that resulted in huge effort and expense? 613 01:05:08,515 --> 01:05:10,502 The police operation, for example? 614 01:05:10,564 --> 01:05:14,220 Wouldn't it have been more economical to talk to me? 615 01:05:14,275 --> 01:05:16,458 What are your plans now? 616 01:05:16,516 --> 01:05:19,309 You've been officially dismissed. What do you think about that? 617 01:06:29,220 --> 01:06:32,679 How do you feel now? Like Don Quixote, who...? 618 01:06:32,739 --> 01:06:33,929 No, not at all. 619 01:06:33,988 --> 01:06:36,236 Or like... 620 01:06:36,292 --> 01:06:40,558 Professor, what are the main points of your dispute? 621 01:06:40,611 --> 01:06:45,543 The cultural scene has been destroyed to a large extent, again by Mr. Rau. 622 01:06:47,235 --> 01:06:50,891 Due to his interference in the Academy of Arts, 623 01:06:50,948 --> 01:06:54,734 its development, the creation of new ideas, 624 01:06:54,788 --> 01:06:59,174 as well as the appearance of foreign artists here in Dusseldorf 625 01:06:59,236 --> 01:07:01,735 have been ruined. That's a fact. 626 01:07:01,795 --> 01:07:03,912 Is it really so dramatic? 627 01:07:03,971 --> 01:07:07,496 The accumulation of these events 628 01:07:07,555 --> 01:07:11,309 results in a kind of experience that makes you want to leave this city 629 01:07:11,364 --> 01:07:14,091 as quickly as possible. 630 01:07:14,148 --> 01:07:16,167 The question is... 631 01:07:17,507 --> 01:07:19,821 Shall we take a short break? 632 01:07:22,276 --> 01:07:27,754 What conclusions have you drawn from it for your future? 633 01:07:27,811 --> 01:07:31,336 I'm treating myself solely through the character of my work. 634 01:07:33,444 --> 01:07:36,357 I've proposed the theory... 635 01:07:36,420 --> 01:07:40,042 "I Nourish Myself by Wasting Energy." 636 01:07:40,099 --> 01:07:44,006 Yes. Yes, that's my method. 637 01:08:03,491 --> 01:08:06,438 FOR ME THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS WEEKENDS 638 01:08:36,675 --> 01:08:41,324 Joseph, do you think you've chosen the right time to come to America 639 01:08:41,379 --> 01:08:44,838 and talk about your ideas on art and politics, 640 01:08:44,900 --> 01:08:50,476 after turning down almost every invitation from America in the last 10 years? 641 01:08:50,531 --> 01:08:55,464 Would you like to smoke a cigar first? 642 01:08:55,716 --> 01:09:00,233 Beuys could embolden you by example. 643 01:09:00,291 --> 01:09:04,045 He had a vision. He wanted something. 644 01:09:04,100 --> 01:09:08,170 We're really into step-by-step plans, as you know. 645 01:09:08,228 --> 01:09:12,330 So let's begin casually with step one. Casually... 646 01:09:12,388 --> 01:09:17,134 He was someone who saw in every person a potential partner 647 01:09:17,188 --> 01:09:20,047 for his ideas, for his ideas. 648 01:09:20,099 --> 01:09:24,617 And he didn't care where someone came from or what they'd done. 649 01:09:24,675 --> 01:09:28,996 He said of himself that his attitude was, 650 01:09:29,060 --> 01:09:32,300 "Give people time and they'll come around." 651 01:09:32,355 --> 01:09:35,748 Because I've now reached the point 652 01:09:35,811 --> 01:09:41,060 where it's clear to me that I won't put on the kind of exhibition in America 653 01:09:41,124 --> 01:09:43,372 that's been the norm in the past... 654 01:09:45,124 --> 01:09:48,135 and that there's a lot of interest here now 655 01:09:48,195 --> 01:09:51,142 in these complex ideas 656 01:09:51,396 --> 01:09:54,506 with a political dimension. 657 01:09:54,564 --> 01:09:58,372 Uh, it's my pleasure to give you Joseph Beuys. 658 01:09:58,435 --> 01:10:00,487 Uh, I've been asked also to say 659 01:10:00,547 --> 01:10:03,974 that Mr. Beuys is willing to stay as long as you're willing to stay. 660 01:10:04,035 --> 01:10:05,289 Mr. Beuys. 661 01:10:12,835 --> 01:10:15,629 To arrive at an understanding of art, 662 01:10:15,684 --> 01:10:20,365 leads immediately to the really practical points of life, 663 01:10:20,419 --> 01:10:24,140 to the people, to the human being. 664 01:10:24,195 --> 01:10:27,338 It is an anthropological dimension of the art. 665 01:10:27,395 --> 01:10:31,018 And now we can slowly begin with such an area 666 01:10:31,075 --> 01:10:33,323 to overcome modern art. 667 01:10:33,380 --> 01:10:37,036 - Yes, that's my confession. - Nobody has to believe. 668 01:10:38,467 --> 01:10:40,072 I learned a huge amount from him, 669 01:10:40,131 --> 01:10:43,918 including how to cope with being insulted and reviled. 670 01:10:43,971 --> 01:10:48,740 ...of art that does not transform society. 671 01:10:48,996 --> 01:10:52,837 How to keep trying and trying again, starting afresh. 672 01:10:52,899 --> 01:10:56,904 And, of course, he was attacked by many people 673 01:10:56,963 --> 01:11:01,514 who didn't like the idea of an artist interfering with social issues. 674 01:11:01,572 --> 01:11:03,787 I think now-- Oh, yes. Another question. 675 01:11:03,844 --> 01:11:08,710 But certainly there are some things that it's necessary to do in life 676 01:11:08,771 --> 01:11:10,637 that have nothing to do with art. 677 01:11:11,811 --> 01:11:13,994 Yeah, perhaps in your understanding. 678 01:11:15,171 --> 01:11:16,360 But if-- 679 01:11:20,676 --> 01:11:24,844 But if you and I are to communicate effectively, 680 01:11:24,899 --> 01:11:26,667 we must have some common understanding 681 01:11:26,723 --> 01:11:29,735 of what these terms mean. Yeah, sure. 682 01:11:29,795 --> 01:11:34,728 And if it's possible for you to give such an open, textured sense to the term "art," 683 01:11:34,787 --> 01:11:38,246 then it's no longer possible for me to understand what you're saying. 684 01:11:38,308 --> 01:11:39,912 Yeah, sure, it's possible. 685 01:11:41,859 --> 01:11:43,365 Art is the only revolutionary power, 686 01:11:43,427 --> 01:11:46,700 because it is based on humankind's creativity 687 01:11:46,755 --> 01:11:49,221 and self-determination and self-government. 688 01:11:51,043 --> 01:11:57,284 Through the idea of art, democracy could be one day reality. 689 01:11:58,723 --> 01:12:00,555 - Thank you, Joseph. - Thank you. 690 01:12:07,363 --> 01:12:11,149 We are speaking about the possibility to create a new world. 691 01:12:11,203 --> 01:12:15,884 But the premise is to create a new world, is to cut away every tradition, 692 01:12:15,939 --> 01:12:19,497 traditional views of ideology. 693 01:12:20,739 --> 01:12:22,791 And we have to start with another thing. 694 01:12:32,420 --> 01:12:38,596 So to give a declaration of the whole development from Plato to Marx, let's say, 695 01:12:38,659 --> 01:12:42,729 and to the necessity to go further than Marx, 696 01:12:42,787 --> 01:12:46,792 not only the idea of art is radically changed, 697 01:12:46,851 --> 01:12:48,718 in my point of view, 698 01:12:48,771 --> 01:12:51,849 also the idea of capital and economy 699 01:12:51,907 --> 01:12:55,399 at the same time is radically changed. 700 01:13:22,083 --> 01:13:25,870 - Uh, Mr. B. - Yeah. 701 01:13:25,923 --> 01:13:29,645 The economy that we're dealing with now is an information based economy. 702 01:13:29,699 --> 01:13:34,184 Those who control the technologies of the world, control the world. 703 01:13:34,243 --> 01:13:40,332 How can we even begin to believe that any basic social change is going to take place, 704 01:13:40,387 --> 01:13:44,260 when these realities are in place and are growing stronger? 705 01:13:53,827 --> 01:13:56,838 Since the only problems which people are facing, 706 01:13:56,900 --> 01:14:00,326 this misuse of economy, the power of the money 707 01:14:00,388 --> 01:14:03,017 and the power of the government, the states. 708 01:14:03,075 --> 01:14:05,258 So eliminate the state. 709 01:14:05,315 --> 01:14:07,847 That is the idea of art. 710 01:14:07,907 --> 01:14:11,781 Away with such states and such political parties 711 01:14:11,843 --> 01:14:14,921 and such politicians. 712 01:14:14,979 --> 01:14:18,307 To come up with a new economical system, 713 01:14:18,371 --> 01:14:22,310 another use of money, a new credit system, 714 01:14:22,371 --> 01:14:25,481 which gets ready with basic problems. 715 01:14:25,539 --> 01:14:29,326 Then the art would play the most important role. 716 01:14:35,011 --> 01:14:36,516 Beuys speaking. 717 01:15:48,259 --> 01:15:51,948 So he went up into René Block's art world space, 718 01:15:52,003 --> 01:15:54,600 completely blocked off from it, 719 01:15:54,659 --> 01:15:58,348 insulated in felt. 720 01:15:58,403 --> 01:16:03,336 And the only dialogue he had was with this American animal. 721 01:16:11,107 --> 01:16:13,736 The additional element was this symbol 722 01:16:13,795 --> 01:16:18,247 of the abstract, crystalline thinking 723 01:16:18,307 --> 01:16:20,904 of how we organize our economic power. 724 01:16:21,155 --> 01:16:22,825 The <i>Wall Sheet Journal.</i> 725 01:16:39,587 --> 01:16:44,716 And Beuys himself said that the coyote controlled the timing of everything he did. 726 01:17:26,115 --> 01:17:31,462 The coyote himself was a shaman in the sense that every animal gets to grips with material 727 01:17:31,523 --> 01:17:35,309 and knows how to manipulate its surroundings. 728 01:17:35,363 --> 01:17:39,237 We're not the only ones who have that capacity. 729 01:19:04,899 --> 01:19:06,765 The coyote was the scapegoat, 730 01:19:06,819 --> 01:19:10,441 you know, the embodiment of mischief and all the malice 731 01:19:10,499 --> 01:19:13,445 that the white settlers 732 01:19:13,506 --> 01:19:17,096 attributed to the Native American. 733 01:19:18,467 --> 01:19:22,024 In New York, they would have been thinking of that. 734 01:19:22,083 --> 01:19:27,081 And the fact that he rejected all dialogue with any of them, 735 01:19:27,139 --> 01:19:30,467 the art world, the artists and critics and everything, 736 01:19:30,530 --> 01:19:35,277 and would only talk to a scapegoated symbol 737 01:19:35,330 --> 01:19:38,058 of the ancient culture of the United States, 738 01:19:38,114 --> 01:19:41,420 or pre United States, America. 739 01:19:43,427 --> 01:19:45,805 That was controversial. 740 01:19:45,859 --> 01:19:50,475 It was a rejection of the art world, of New York, 741 01:19:50,531 --> 01:19:54,470 of the States, and of their whole culture. 742 01:19:54,530 --> 01:19:55,949 And it was meant to be. 743 01:20:57,923 --> 01:20:59,243 Beuys speaking... 744 01:21:02,146 --> 01:21:05,474 Joseph Beuys, both venerated and reviled, 745 01:21:05,539 --> 01:21:07,492 is running for parliament. 746 01:21:09,570 --> 01:21:15,877 In 1971, he founded an organization for direct democracy through referenda, 747 01:21:15,938 --> 01:21:19,976 and he's totally serious about his current election campaign. 748 01:21:20,034 --> 01:21:23,875 Serious about, among other things, bringing laughter into parliament. 749 01:21:23,939 --> 01:21:26,568 Would you like to become Chancellor? Pardon? 750 01:21:28,995 --> 01:21:30,762 Pardon? Would you like to become Chancellor? 751 01:21:30,819 --> 01:21:32,838 Sure. 752 01:21:36,739 --> 01:21:38,572 Sure, why not? 753 01:21:40,259 --> 01:21:42,125 Yeah, that's the way it is... 754 01:22:03,203 --> 01:22:09,837 Tonight we're going to discuss the chances and limits of politicization through art. 755 01:22:09,890 --> 01:22:13,863 If I could determine what is, then I could quickly agree with you. 756 01:22:13,923 --> 01:22:16,902 I don't want to keep determining what is, 757 01:22:16,962 --> 01:22:21,828 I want to get an idea of what might be desirable for people. 758 01:22:21,891 --> 01:22:25,001 You talk about innovation as if no one had ever thought of it before... 759 01:22:25,058 --> 01:22:26,925 You're just insinuating that... 760 01:22:26,978 --> 01:22:31,812 Then let me speak for five minutes. 761 01:22:31,874 --> 01:22:33,293 Joseph Beuys... 762 01:22:33,346 --> 01:22:37,733 You won't commit yourself. That's your unbridled liberalism. 763 01:22:37,794 --> 01:22:40,522 That's no use to political activists. 764 01:22:40,579 --> 01:22:43,939 My desire for freedom. Fine, I'd call it something else. 765 01:22:44,195 --> 01:22:47,054 But let me talk about Beuys' political praxis. 766 01:22:47,107 --> 01:22:51,973 I believe the term "politics," as it's used currently, 767 01:22:52,034 --> 01:22:55,395 is what's preventing genuine change. 768 01:22:55,459 --> 01:22:59,878 Joseph Beuys, you're Germany's most controversial artist. 769 01:22:59,939 --> 01:23:01,859 But you're also a member of the Green Party. 770 01:23:01,923 --> 01:23:03,909 Are you serious about that? 771 01:23:03,970 --> 01:23:08,870 Of course. You have to achieve things via a future-oriented movement. 772 01:23:16,323 --> 01:23:18,309 The conference is open! 773 01:23:19,426 --> 01:23:22,089 I would like to point out 774 01:23:22,146 --> 01:23:24,547 that the process of forming opinions 775 01:23:24,611 --> 01:23:29,838 is incredibly laborious for a young party such as ourselves. 776 01:23:29,890 --> 01:23:33,218 Beuys really didn't need that. 777 01:23:33,283 --> 01:23:37,036 He got himself involved with the formation of a party 778 01:23:37,091 --> 01:23:39,469 and with everything that went along with that. 779 01:23:41,315 --> 01:23:44,970 You wouldn't believe what torture that is. 780 01:23:45,027 --> 01:23:48,486 Especially in the case of a party that isn't a party, 781 01:23:48,547 --> 01:23:50,467 where everything's totally haywire. 782 01:23:50,531 --> 01:23:53,958 no one is being rejected! 783 01:23:54,019 --> 01:23:58,471 You had nature lovers colliding with hard-core Marxists. 784 01:23:58,530 --> 01:24:01,291 Then there were diehard Nazis 785 01:24:01,347 --> 01:24:07,021 who had somehow become acceptable because of their holistic philosophy. 786 01:24:07,074 --> 01:24:11,047 And then there were the left-wingers from Hamburg. 787 01:24:15,171 --> 01:24:17,898 Beuys dove right in. 788 01:24:17,955 --> 01:24:20,388 We'll have to keep working with it, of course. 789 01:24:20,450 --> 01:24:22,665 It won't stop you from continuing to work with the Greens. 790 01:24:22,722 --> 01:24:24,676 No, it won't stop me. 791 01:24:27,170 --> 01:24:29,516 He really believed in that movement, 792 01:24:29,571 --> 01:24:33,673 in the founding of the Green Party, and Beuys said: 793 01:24:33,731 --> 01:24:36,775 "We've witnessed a historic day today." 794 01:24:36,834 --> 01:24:41,734 He was so certain that it was the anti-party party. 795 01:24:45,859 --> 01:24:47,594 A Green Party program? 796 01:24:49,218 --> 01:24:50,473 A program? 797 01:24:50,530 --> 01:24:52,233 Green Party program? Thanks. 798 01:24:52,290 --> 01:24:54,374 How about you? 799 01:24:54,435 --> 01:24:56,202 Maybe he'll give us his autograph. 800 01:24:57,954 --> 01:24:59,821 I think more of you as an artist. 801 01:24:59,874 --> 01:25:02,918 Hold on! What do I get in return? 802 01:25:02,979 --> 01:25:06,568 Will you vote for the Green Party if I draw a picture for you? 803 01:25:08,930 --> 01:25:13,961 <i>Casual elegance reigned at Düsseldorf gallery Denise René last night.</i> 804 01:25:14,018 --> 01:25:17,226 <i>Andy Warhol, pale, shy,</i> 805 01:25:17,283 --> 01:25:21,866 <i>constantly searching for Joseph Beuys, who was nowhere to be seen.</i> 806 01:25:21,923 --> 01:25:25,731 Joseph Beuys, who we're still waiting for, has become such a politician 807 01:25:25,794 --> 01:25:30,628 that he knows how to make a dramatic entrance. 808 01:25:30,690 --> 01:25:35,339 I remember driving back from Brussels with him one time. 809 01:25:35,394 --> 01:25:39,367 And I said... Because we were all very tired, 810 01:25:39,426 --> 01:25:43,813 we'd started out from Brussels at five or six in the morning, 811 01:25:43,874 --> 01:25:46,918 and during the journey back he said, 812 01:25:46,978 --> 01:25:49,925 "I've got to get back, I can't stop for long." 813 01:25:49,986 --> 01:25:53,510 So we took a lovely photo of him at a roadhouse, 814 01:25:53,570 --> 01:25:58,251 on which he wrote, "The Man at the Main Lever." 815 01:25:58,307 --> 01:26:01,929 And I think the man at the main lever. 816 01:26:07,907 --> 01:26:08,998 Beuys speaking. 817 01:26:13,602 --> 01:26:15,501 <i>Good morning, Mr. Beuys in Düsseldorf.</i> 818 01:26:15,554 --> 01:26:16,875 <i>Morning.</i> 819 01:26:26,338 --> 01:26:27,560 Beuys speaking. 820 01:26:29,027 --> 01:26:30,412 Who called? 821 01:26:33,698 --> 01:26:36,677 And during the journey he said, 822 01:26:36,738 --> 01:26:38,887 "I've got so many appointments, 823 01:26:38,946 --> 01:26:42,700 from now on I'll start at four in the morning..." 824 01:26:42,754 --> 01:26:47,206 Four in the morning. "...or at five, or at six." 825 01:26:47,267 --> 01:26:50,442 I thought, "How long can anyone keep that up?" 826 01:26:53,410 --> 01:26:55,789 Beuys speaking. 827 01:26:55,842 --> 01:26:58,156 I don't have time at the moment. 828 01:26:58,210 --> 01:27:02,979 It's wearing me out, but that's necessary. 829 01:27:03,042 --> 01:27:05,475 Why is it necessary? 830 01:27:05,538 --> 01:27:07,687 Sorry? Why is it necessary? 831 01:27:07,746 --> 01:27:10,605 Why've you got to wear yourself out? 832 01:27:10,659 --> 01:27:12,972 Everyone has to wear them selves out. 833 01:27:13,026 --> 01:27:17,827 It'd be bad if they were good and died without wearing themselves out. 834 01:27:17,891 --> 01:27:21,099 Okay. Everything has to be used up anyway. 835 01:27:22,595 --> 01:27:25,159 It doesn't matter what profession you're in, 836 01:27:25,219 --> 01:27:28,645 you have to wear yourself out. 837 01:27:28,707 --> 01:27:33,573 You have to burn yourself down to ashes, otherwise there's no point. 838 01:27:33,634 --> 01:27:36,580 If you're still good, that's bad. 839 01:27:36,642 --> 01:27:39,468 Then it's frustrating, isn't it? 840 01:27:39,522 --> 01:27:44,355 "Everything's still so good!" And then you kick the bucket, that's bad. 841 01:27:44,419 --> 01:27:47,245 From this perspective, not from another. 842 01:28:03,619 --> 01:28:07,307 What are some things you would like to accomplish during your visit here? 843 01:28:20,322 --> 01:28:24,392 But come back to it, because you're very articulate. 844 01:28:24,450 --> 01:28:26,436 You've gotta do it on your own. 845 01:28:26,498 --> 01:28:28,550 I think I have to leave now. 846 01:28:31,490 --> 01:28:34,600 No, if you have a question, a last question, it's okay. 847 01:29:30,498 --> 01:29:34,306 I remember it being very summery... 848 01:29:36,770 --> 01:29:42,149 and those river meadows and the smell of the <i>Rosa rugosa.</i> 849 01:29:42,210 --> 01:29:44,294 I can never smell that without thinking of that. 850 01:29:44,354 --> 01:29:47,049 Because there was a big chance that he would die. 851 01:29:50,914 --> 01:29:54,788 So I went over and he was in the hospital... 852 01:29:56,930 --> 01:29:58,763 on the Rhine. 853 01:30:08,354 --> 01:30:10,700 I think it was more 854 01:30:10,754 --> 01:30:15,522 the intensity with which he wanted to follow his work. 855 01:30:17,667 --> 01:30:22,151 And he knew that you can't, uh-- 856 01:30:22,210 --> 01:30:26,281 If you fight and <i>streben</i> against something like that, you do more harm. 857 01:30:26,338 --> 01:30:27,495 So he was being calm. 858 01:30:36,867 --> 01:30:41,482 He actually invited that photograph of him with no hat on. 859 01:30:43,490 --> 01:30:48,323 That was very brave of him to ask for a portrait then. 860 01:31:09,890 --> 01:31:13,218 In which area are you laziest? Sorry? 861 01:31:13,282 --> 01:31:15,431 In which area are you laziest? 862 01:31:16,290 --> 01:31:17,479 Laziest? 863 01:31:17,538 --> 01:31:20,365 Yes, laziest. 864 01:31:22,914 --> 01:31:27,944 Maybe I don't understand your question. I just said... 865 01:31:28,002 --> 01:31:32,715 A time always comes when you're tempted to retire from active life. 866 01:31:35,618 --> 01:31:39,175 When you say, "Maybe it would be better if I went to Australia." 867 01:31:39,234 --> 01:31:40,904 That's not a joke. 868 01:31:41,954 --> 01:31:42,826 Is it? 869 01:31:49,826 --> 01:31:51,943 You mustn't retire. 870 01:31:52,002 --> 01:31:56,356 I'm not going to. I'm not going to retire. 871 01:31:56,418 --> 01:32:00,226 I'm not going to retire. But if at some time I... 872 01:32:00,290 --> 01:32:03,879 It really would be a historical disaster. 873 01:32:03,938 --> 01:32:06,764 That's why I'm not going to retire. 874 01:32:08,258 --> 01:32:10,342 I'm not going to retire at all. 875 01:32:13,058 --> 01:32:16,648 But you're bound to say at some point, "Kiss my ass! 876 01:32:18,274 --> 01:32:21,548 I'm going to wander dreamily around the world." 877 01:32:23,202 --> 01:32:25,450 What would the alternative be? 878 01:32:27,906 --> 01:32:32,674 The alternative would be to carry on in a form where, to a certain extent, 879 01:32:32,738 --> 01:32:35,913 you're well-known. 880 01:32:35,970 --> 01:32:38,599 To stubbornly carry on doing the same thing. 881 01:34:13,794 --> 01:34:19,588 I can see Beuys's loneliness and his incredible sensitivity, 882 01:34:19,650 --> 01:34:22,345 his porousness, his... 883 01:34:23,266 --> 01:34:24,358 That... 884 01:34:26,082 --> 01:34:29,955 That he was always inside his wound, inside his hurt. 885 01:34:31,778 --> 01:34:36,099 And that makes you admire this incredible strength even more, 886 01:34:36,161 --> 01:34:40,362 which he used as an antidote, his courage as well. 887 01:34:40,418 --> 01:34:43,211 Mr. Beuys, I don't want to mention your hat... 888 01:34:43,266 --> 01:34:45,350 Mr. Beuys, you've now... 889 01:34:45,409 --> 01:34:46,763 Mr. Beuys, what is art? 890 01:34:47,714 --> 01:34:49,100 Beuys! 891 01:34:59,010 --> 01:35:01,541 Do you feel comfortable in your role 892 01:35:01,602 --> 01:35:06,851 as an artist who's successful in the institutional art world? 893 01:35:06,914 --> 01:35:09,478 I mean, how do you feel about that? Or-- 894 01:35:09,538 --> 01:35:13,575 See, art showed already the impossibility to solve 895 01:35:13,634 --> 01:35:18,948 such very important, basic problems of humankind. 896 01:35:19,009 --> 01:35:23,145 But that is not the end of the art. Now the art begins. 897 01:35:26,050 --> 01:35:28,330 This is my objection. 898 01:35:28,386 --> 01:35:30,535 I think that the sensational character 899 01:35:30,594 --> 01:35:34,794 lends to your remarks a force that's strictly locutionary. 900 01:35:34,850 --> 01:35:36,356 It's kind of empty rhetoric. 901 01:35:36,418 --> 01:35:37,956 Yeah. 902 01:35:41,794 --> 01:35:46,028 But as much I could do it, I gave already the proofs. 903 01:35:46,082 --> 01:35:49,956 There is not only sensation, 904 01:35:50,018 --> 01:35:52,812 but it has to be sensation. 905 01:35:52,865 --> 01:35:56,739 Otherwise, it would be of no interest. 906 01:36:02,498 --> 01:36:05,804 It has to be sensationally... 907 01:36:05,858 --> 01:36:09,349 ONLY 2,272 DAYS UNTIL THE END OF CAPITALISM 908 01:36:09,410 --> 01:36:11,309 - Yes. - Yes. 909 01:36:11,554 --> 01:36:16,487 How to topple capitalism, that's how I'd have to put it. 910 01:36:16,546 --> 01:36:17,484 Yes. 911 01:36:25,314 --> 01:36:30,443 NEXT TIME WE'LL NAME NAMES AND IDEAS 912 01:36:30,498 --> 01:36:33,826 Mr. Beuys, are you a radical? Yes, I am. 913 01:36:33,889 --> 01:36:36,617 A famous radical. Is that possible? 914 01:36:36,673 --> 01:36:41,507 It would be good if radicals became famous and people listened to them. 915 01:36:43,874 --> 01:36:47,595 In '83, the Greens were going full steam 916 01:36:47,650 --> 01:36:50,476 and for the first time they had a real chance 917 01:36:50,530 --> 01:36:53,061 of getting into parliament. 918 01:36:53,122 --> 01:36:57,705 And no one understood why he kept going on about the term "capital." 919 01:36:57,762 --> 01:37:00,261 It was much too lofty, even for the Greens. 920 01:37:00,514 --> 01:37:03,973 <i>And now I want to get to the heart of the matter.</i> 921 01:37:04,034 --> 01:37:06,696 <i>Because whenever a democratic process</i> 922 01:37:06,754 --> 01:37:11,522 <i>dares touch the actual nerve of societal change,</i> 923 01:37:11,585 --> 01:37:16,965 <i>the power relations around money undermine every attempt at democracy.</i> 924 01:37:17,026 --> 01:37:21,031 <i>The power of money must be broken.</i> 925 01:37:21,089 --> 01:37:24,898 <i>Today money is a tradable commodity you can speculate with it.</i> 926 01:37:26,018 --> 01:37:27,971 <i>So in the economic sphere,</i> 927 01:37:28,034 --> 01:37:31,558 <i>money is an entity that shouldn't be a commodity</i> 928 01:37:31,618 --> 01:37:33,418 <i>but because it is a commodity</i> 929 01:37:33,474 --> 01:37:37,576 <i>this character must be brought into line with the whole of democracy.</i> 930 01:37:45,058 --> 01:37:49,128 We went to the conference and didn't think anything of it. 931 01:37:49,185 --> 01:37:50,823 We thought... 932 01:37:50,882 --> 01:37:54,275 Because Beuys had been the top candidate three years before. 933 01:37:54,337 --> 01:37:59,651 And you sensed immediately that the atmosphere was really peculiar. 934 01:37:59,714 --> 01:38:02,573 Who's still interested in you? 935 01:38:02,625 --> 01:38:05,190 Who do you still provoke...? Quiet, please! 936 01:38:07,458 --> 01:38:09,804 Could you be quieter, please? 937 01:38:09,858 --> 01:38:14,757 And some of the delegates really went after him. 938 01:38:14,818 --> 01:38:17,033 "Beuys, go off and play with your fat!" 939 01:38:18,402 --> 01:38:19,460 Or... 940 01:38:22,338 --> 01:38:24,258 "Beuys, you're costing us votes." 941 01:38:27,425 --> 01:38:30,950 Please be quiet in the hall, or we can't hear anything up here. 942 01:38:31,009 --> 01:38:35,909 We quickly figured out that the candidates had already been selected. 943 01:38:39,553 --> 01:38:42,881 It was clear he wasn't one of them. 944 01:38:47,426 --> 01:38:50,372 He was being dropped by his own people. 945 01:39:17,186 --> 01:39:21,191 You don't fail, I mean, the endeavor, the attempt, 946 01:39:21,249 --> 01:39:23,977 trying to do something 947 01:39:24,034 --> 01:39:28,355 is a success in itself. 948 01:39:29,794 --> 01:39:33,121 There isn't an end to all this, you know. 949 01:39:33,186 --> 01:39:37,191 There isn't a state of perfection... 950 01:39:37,249 --> 01:39:40,457 or when it's all finished. 951 01:42:36,033 --> 01:42:38,761 There's no point in me standing up in front of someone, 952 01:42:38,817 --> 01:42:41,960 or in front of lots of people... 953 01:42:44,673 --> 01:42:47,173 without there being a question. 954 01:42:47,233 --> 01:42:52,328 What's the point of just foisting an issue on people? 955 01:42:52,385 --> 01:42:56,804 Because they might not even be interested in it. 956 01:42:56,866 --> 01:43:00,106 I have to speak in a way that I know 957 01:43:00,161 --> 01:43:02,758 that there's something inside of the people, 958 01:43:02,817 --> 01:43:04,323 that there's a question 959 01:43:04,385 --> 01:43:08,586 that I can try to answer, that I can try 960 01:43:08,642 --> 01:43:10,474 to solve together with them. 961 01:43:10,529 --> 01:43:12,428 It's actually a joint task.