1 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,120 Look what I'm doing - standing with a knife. 2 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,200 Even like this, I can keep up my secret reputation 3 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:03,640 as evil and vicious. 4 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,520 Ah! Oh! God bless David Bowie. 5 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,000 Which one? The LSD, the DMT or the ketamine? 6 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,480 The OTO, Cafe OTO, was great. 7 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,320 It was beautiful. 8 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:25,000 We really like doing those. Your lunch is here. 9 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,560 Lunch is served. 10 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,560 Do you mind if I just give her a little...? 11 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,600 We moved here in '96. 12 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,080 Way back in the '60s, we wrote this poem about, 13 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,640 "New York is the toilet of Europe. 14 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,080 "They flush all the people they don't want into New York." 15 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,200 And strangely enough, they flushed me here, too. 16 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,800 Wow, what a life, Musty. 17 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,360 What a life. 18 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,640 One of the most transgressive art collectives 19 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,240 that this country's ever produced. 20 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,960 It was pretty full-on. How do you actually describe your own music? 21 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,360 To be as difficult as possible. 22 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:05,840 No boundaries. 23 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,560 You were intending to provoke the establishment, weren't you? 24 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,840 We've always strived to be honest. 25 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,400 I'm interested in what human beings are capable of doing to one another, 26 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:15,680 good and bad. 27 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,880 I grew up with Throbbing Gristle. 28 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,400 Utter inspiration to me when I was younger and queer. 29 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,840 The wreckers of civilisation, 30 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,680 and anything less, I'll be sorely disappointed. 31 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,680 All my life I've been drawn to gardens, 32 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,600 and I'm a big believer that everybody should touch the Earth 33 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,120 once a day. 34 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:43,960 The garden is a very spiritual place. 35 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,080 It's, there's, the plants are not going to ask you any questions, 36 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,040 they're just going to make their statement and be there. 37 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:52,560 Maybe we should be more like that. 38 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,800 Just be rather than try and change everything. 39 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,840 Ah, lovely! That powdery blue, that lilac-y blue. 40 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,560 If you was at the beginning of the world, 41 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,680 and you were creating the world, could you have thought of that? 42 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,720 Would you have ever thought a fish, that live in water? 43 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,680 What great thing, what a great idea. 44 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,200 Whose idea was that? 45 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,800 They can't live in our world and we can't live in theirs. Wow! 46 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,560 I came originally from Hull. 47 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,720 I grew up with Cosey. We were neighbours. 48 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,360 We were friends from the age of dot. 49 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,600 She's like my sister rather than a friend. 50 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,760 We are very close. 51 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,960 In our teens, we grew up and did things together, 52 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:45,360 and, when she left home, she moved into a different part of Hull, 53 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,880 and eventually met up with Genesis, 54 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,480 and they'd started doing different things under the name 55 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,480 of COUM Transmissions. 56 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,480 I can't tell you when that actually started, or when it ended, 57 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,640 cos I feel it still goes on. 58 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,000 COUM is transmitting now. 59 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,360 Les once made a point to me years ago - 60 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,680 we forget that as we grow, we're growing away from the ground. 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,240 He said, "When you're young, you just see everything, 62 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:11,480 "and you're on the ground 63 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,520 "and you can see all this are the world going on. 64 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,040 "And as you grow your, your eyes are moving away from that 65 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:18,880 "and focusing on other things." 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,000 And I think it's good to get back down on the ground 67 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,360 and realise where everything really comes from. 68 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,200 I grew up on a council estate in Hull. 69 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,760 I was born in 1951 - post-war baby. 70 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,160 I wasn't content with what I was expected to be. 71 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:41,880 I mean, especially being I wasn't middle-lass, I was working-class, 72 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:47,080 and you were definitely channelled into just literally working 73 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,560 for the rest of your life, 74 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,480 being a wife and working and supporting your husband. 75 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,800 Even, even a lot of the women on my estate didn't go to work. 76 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,480 Some worked in factories, but not many. 77 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,480 They were stay-at-home mums. 78 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,200 And, erm, I, I couldn't see myself doing that. 79 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,120 Maybe the way my dad brought me up and gave me access to a more male 80 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,960 kind of view of the world, through, you know, wanting me to be a boy. 81 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,240 I think that had a lot to do with it. 82 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,680 I remember having a conversation with my father when I was 14. 83 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,120 He wanted me to be a gas fitter for British Gas. 84 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,200 And I told him I wanted to be a poet. 85 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,320 I never really knew what that meant, but it sounded nice. 86 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,920 But I knew instinctively, that I was different, 87 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,400 and that I wasn't like the other boys. 88 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:36,680 I lived on a council estate. 89 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,200 You were homosexual, you were queer, you would be beaten up. 90 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,560 Hull was pretty isolated. 91 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,760 The Humber Bridge wasn't built. 92 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,440 Back in the 1960s, Hull was a different sort of place. 93 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,120 Most people just had to work, and just tucked into that, you know, 94 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,480 so a very drab, drab place, Hull. 95 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,160 And I hate to say that, but that's how it was. 96 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,560 Obviously, there was beginnings of pop programmes 97 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,040 which became Top Of The Pops, but there were all sorts of things 98 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,440 going on before then, like Ready, Steady, Go. 99 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,360 So you've got an idea of what was going on in the world 100 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,120 outside of Hull. 101 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,840 And, also, there were a lot of bands that came to play in Hull. 102 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:21,680 So, you'd get the Small Faces and Walker Brothers, 103 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,240 and then Hendrix, of course, came in, 104 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,520 and that was a big sort of epiphany for me, really, 105 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,240 was seeing him. 106 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,200 When I started going to all the music and folk clubs 107 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,280 and meeting those kind of people, 108 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,360 I realised that a different lifestyle was possible, 109 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,400 and that was where I was heading, you know? 110 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,880 With a 303 rifle, I was a first-class sniper. 111 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,640 So, Jen and I first really met when we were travelling on a bus 112 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,800 to a cadet force day out. 113 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,960 This is where you dressed as soldiers and went out 114 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,160 and shot at things, you know? 115 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,640 I'd got a few things in my pockets that he was interested in. 116 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,800 I'd got my appendix I used to carry around with me in a jar, 117 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,960 I'd got a dried-up leech, I'd got a rabbit bone, you know, 118 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,640 all those things that boys have. 119 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,360 He was...effete. 120 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,160 He was kind of like the Oscar Wilde of the school. 121 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,600 Solihull School in those days was a very repressed place. 122 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,800 You know, we were very much outsiders. 123 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,640 And, at that point, we did not have a single friend. 124 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,840 And then there were these four boys a year below me 125 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,400 who were also in the same kind of boat. 126 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,000 They were getting bullied. 127 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,400 And it was our salvation, really, cos we then realised 128 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,160 that we were into the weird, new music that was happening, 129 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,800 and we were into beatnik poetry, 130 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,680 and it was spies that often informed us of new stuff. 131 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,640 He told me, "There's a band called The Velvet Underground," 132 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,080 and he'd first heard about Sun Ra and the Mothers Of Invention. 133 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,800 It's hugely impossible to describe, in the internet days, 134 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,960 when you can just google something, but, you know, 135 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,400 we'd fall on this stuff like starving men, really. 136 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,000 We felt like we were a miniature version of the beats, 137 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,880 that we were protecting each other and inspiring each other, 138 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,720 and we were working towards doing something important. 139 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,400 We received...these visions, 140 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,720 under the name COUM Transmissions, 141 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,040 in the late summer of 1969. 142 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,600 We thought that we were completely alone 143 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,680 and that we'd experimented with being in a commune in London 144 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:49,240 and it hadn't worked, and we had no great idea of direction. 145 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,160 We were just floating free. 146 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,600 We decided to hitchhike around Britain and, 147 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,040 on the way, to drop in on my parents in Shrewsbury. 148 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,920 There was this weekend where they said, 149 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,440 "Would you like to go for a drive in the countryside?" 150 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,640 So, we were driving around, 151 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,880 and we closed our eyes at some point. 152 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:19,000 And suddenly there was an explosion of psychedelic spirals 153 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,400 and colours and voices, 154 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:26,840 and we suddenly had this experience that my being 155 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,240 had moved outside the car, 156 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,760 but we were reduced to the molecules and the atoms. 157 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,960 So, we were in the hedge, but moving through it. 158 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,160 And as that realisation was happening in my conscious mind, 159 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,280 suddenly all this other information started coming in. 160 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,160 And part of that was this phrase cosmic organicism 161 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,840 of the universal molecular. 162 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,560 COUM for short - C-O-U-M. 163 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,320 I was at the point where I'd started smoking dope, taking acid, 164 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,680 left my job because that was just too straight. 165 00:10:10,680 --> 00:10:15,040 And there were people in the college that I got to meet who had bands. 166 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,160 And so my whole world shifted from the council estate to people 167 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,280 that went to university, art college, and I spent 168 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,520 all my time with them. 169 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,600 I was also in the throes of being thrown out of home. 170 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,280 And I've been thrown out once and still not learned my lesson. 171 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:37,160 We had received amongst the visions that we would meet a woman 172 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,400 who would be Cosmosis. 173 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,800 I was at the university and had gone to an acid test, 174 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,040 which I didn't like at all. 175 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,280 I was about to leave. 176 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,000 And as I was coming down the stairs, I saw this little guy 177 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:56,000 with a graduation gown and the hat and the purple beard. 178 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:01,920 And there was this classic flower child and we kind of stopped 179 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:03,720 and looked at her. 180 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,120 I didn't quite know if he was real or not. 181 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,320 And he'd seen me, apparently. Someone came up to me and said, 182 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,160 "Cosmosis, Genesis wants to see you." 183 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,240 That was the name he gave me. 184 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,760 Then about a week or two later, I met up with him. 185 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,680 So we moved all our stuff into Prince Street. 186 00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:32,200 This totally Dickensian, Georgian terrace. 187 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,000 Two of them were more or less derelict, knocked into one. 188 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,360 They have 19 rooms. 189 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,440 But the downside was, when it rained or snowed, it snowed and rained 190 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,320 in the kitchen. 191 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,680 And then shortly after, Spydeee joined us. 192 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:50,960 I'd gone hitchhiking 193 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,160 around the country and gone to various places. 194 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,600 I'd gone to Hull then because I had to leave home as well. 195 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,680 Eventually, I found Gen and Cosey just living around the corner 196 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:01,440 and moved in with them. 197 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,680 And as far as I'm concerned, that's where COUM really began. 198 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,560 Hello, good morning and welcome to Arena. Genesis P-Orridge, 199 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:18,600 who is fairly well known in Hull for his walking about with long hair 200 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,080 and a beret, came into the studio to tell me what was going to happen. 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,840 Well, obviously it starts with COUMA Are Fab and Kinky. 202 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,840 "COUM is the folk music of tomorrow, because there is no tomorrow. 203 00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:36,560 "COUM urinate down the handrails of your subconscious." 204 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:39,480 "Come away, you don't know where they've been." 205 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,120 "COUM make a nice evening out for the family." 206 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,160 There was nothing like it in Hull. 207 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,560 Totally nothing like it. We would go out on the streets, on the main 208 00:12:49,560 --> 00:12:54,440 shopping area, dressed up in really vibrant colours and do bizarre 209 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,640 little Dada surrealist actions. 210 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,200 They said to me at one point the people come and say, 211 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,960 "Well, what does it mean?" It doesn't need to mean anything. 212 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:03,960 It just is. 213 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:11,120 We would bring props out and stand there and maybe do a sort of recite 214 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:17,760 poetry or do songs and try and involve the public. 215 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:19,840 By the way, Hull was quite a friendly place. 216 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,960 People were pleased to see, you know, you brighten their day. 217 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,680 You know, you could almost say every day was a performance, really. 218 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,600 It grabbed people's attention, it made people smile. 219 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,360 Some people became angry, they thought 220 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,080 we was absolute lunatics. 221 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,920 Some joined COUM from that and said, "I really enjoyed the other night. 222 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,920 "It was like something I'd never seen." 223 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,240 You know, "Next time you're doing something, can I join in?" 224 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,240 We were interested in the idea that people who've never been to art 225 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:55,720 college, people who were the cast-offs of society, were actually 226 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,120 all potentially geniuses. 227 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:05,840 We considered ourselves as outlaws and outcasts, really, because anyone 228 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,640 can do art. You don't need a degree. 229 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,680 Anyone can play an instrument. 230 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,000 Anyone can make a noise. 231 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,640 I mean, I had a couple of very cheap old tape recorders, reel 232 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,960 to reel, and I would mix them up and I'd slow them down and record 233 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,960 off the other one and I'd use a bit of Stockhausen and I'd use classical 234 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,800 music and underlay that with... Record the sound of the beds in the 235 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,640 garden and just overlay it and overlay it until I had a concoction 236 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,560 of sound which seemed to fill the room. 237 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,080 Most of the people that we worked with had nothing to do 238 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,880 with universities or art colleges. 239 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,600 They were just incredibly eccentric, interesting people. 240 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,520 People inhabited these characters that they had a particular interest 241 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:53,080 in and fetish for, even, if you want to say that, and they were allowed 242 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,360 to go and explore that, but in a public place. 243 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,600 Was a free thinking way of doing things. 244 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:10,880 It was new. 245 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,160 It felt right. 246 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,560 It felt as if this is the direction the whole world should go. 247 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,640 We did a gig in Bradford, and that was how we met Foxtrot. 248 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,800 I always thought it was more like a gang or a group, at least, 249 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,000 but a gang, really. In some ways it was like a criminal gang or a kid's 250 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,120 gang. It was very much a '60s thing, which I think was very healthy. 251 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,800 Everybody could have a go. 252 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,240 It was at a time when there was some social mobility. 253 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,720 You know, your father could have been a docker or something, 254 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,080 but you could do something. 255 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,480 I think this was to get into Czechoslovakia. 256 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,160 I actually said COUM was my company. 257 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,440 This is one of the patches, which were embroidered by Cosey. 258 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,960 And the whole Daily News or whatever it was. 259 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,200 There's Gen sitting in Prince Street. 260 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,120 That was an extraordinary place. 261 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,800 It was a semi-derelict jam factory. 262 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,480 There were sort of dummies and strange figures. 263 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,080 It was like a sort of wonderland, really. 264 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,520 And I know Spydeee said he was always cold. 265 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,760 The roof was leaking and the kitchen was just a cobbled floor that used 266 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,080 to get frosted over in winter, and the toilet in the corner, 267 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,640 which was disgusting. 268 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,400 And we used to have a water carrier that we'd fill up and take upstairs 269 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,480 to do the cooking on the fire. 270 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,160 It was hard, but for me, I was kind of living in a way I'd never lived 271 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,200 before, like everybody was. We all were in that house. 272 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:42,080 It was just, I can't really describe to people what it was like as an art 273 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,360 practice because I never looked at it like that. 274 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,640 It was just the way I lived. 275 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,120 It was hand to mouth. 276 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:55,920 A lot of people don't realise that having no money in your pocket 277 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,080 and no prospect of any money... Where you going to go? 278 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,000 What are you going to do? 279 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,040 Genesis got the dole. Cosey had part time jobs 280 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,360 to help them survive. I had to get odd jobs as well. 281 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:12,960 You know, I worked at the docks and I was a petrol pump attendant 282 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,560 and all sorts of in between. 283 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,440 I got quite fed up with not having enough money to eat properly. 284 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,040 And I went and got a job at the Humbrol paint factory. 285 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:28,720 So we could have regular meals and we could afford to buy 286 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,920 certain things for the actions that we wanted to do. 287 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,840 Cosey was actually on this poster. 288 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,520 This is a bone of contention. 289 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,680 Why was not the only female member of the group 290 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,160 on the poster, you know? 291 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,480 Well, it was really. 292 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:56,840 I never even cottoned on that I was the only woman because it's just not 293 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,240 the way I looked at it. 294 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,040 I was just part of this creative community. 295 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,000 But, yeah, I did do a lot of the housework. 296 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,320 So I think other people looked at me as a woman and expected me 297 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,520 to do womanly duties. 298 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,400 I had no roof over my head from being thrown out, 299 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,240 so this was my security, this home. 300 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,320 Both Cosey and I, we could have ended up homeless 301 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,600 on the streets, you know? Absolutely could. 302 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,200 It was very close to that side of things. 303 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,760 It's bad because I really don't want to compartmentalise 304 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,320 her as the mother figure, but she just had the common sense, 305 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,840 actually, is what it was, the common sense that, you know, 306 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,480 we need to eat. We need to keep a certain degree of cleanliness. 307 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,520 We need to keep a certain degree of sanity. 308 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,760 General Idea, who were based in Toronto, did a magazine called 309 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:02,000 File, and amongst it in one of their issues was about six pages 310 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:07,960 that were yellow paper and it was called the Image Bank Request List. 311 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,480 And in it, there were literally maybe 2,000 artists' names, 312 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,040 and you could give your name and your mailing address, 313 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,920 and then you could request images of what you needed for your work. 314 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:21,400 We started writing to people. 315 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,840 It was like being given a gift, really. 316 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,320 And sending handmade things. 317 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,880 The whole idea was that you were avoiding the galleries, 318 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,480 you were avoiding commerciality. 319 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,960 You are giving a gift to another artist. 320 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,880 And so, word got around and people would write to you and say, 321 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,720 "We're doing this, how do you fancy doing some little thing "with us?" 322 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,640 Was a good time, and it really accelerated 323 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,600 what we were doing in terms of who we're meeting 324 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,960 and the opportunities that were sort of presented to us as well. 325 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,480 Yeah, it sort of exploded. 326 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,680 Thank you all. Is he going to smack me up? 327 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:15,600 It became too hot, so they moved out. They made the right choice, 328 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,760 but it wasn't because of that, they had to get out of Hull. 329 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,560 There was nothing left in Hull, Hull had gone. 330 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,680 And I kept saying to them, you know, most of the things we'd like to do, 331 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,400 I'm sure they'll be a more receptive audience down in London. 332 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:36,280 And we had our Austin, the big black van, and we piled 333 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,880 what we needed and could fit into it. 334 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,120 You're walking along that way 335 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:53,520 because I've got to go now, 336 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,680 I own this house. 337 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,680 You know, sometimes I really do think... 338 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,720 ..that, you know... Keep me company. 339 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,760 It was a big, big thing to move to London. 340 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,920 It was a big move that fragmented us as a collective. 341 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,120 And then we met different people. 342 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,480 Robin Klassnik was saying that there was a studio 343 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,760 at Martello St that was up, 344 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,160 and did we want it? 345 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,600 The electricity wasn't working and the water was turned off 346 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,920 in the one sink and one tap. 347 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,800 But it was home. It was a bit better than Prince St, but it was much 348 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,480 smaller, it was just one room instead of 17. 349 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,160 I built this box in one corner, 350 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,680 a wooden cave box just big enough 351 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,720 for a mattress that Cosey had sewn out of canvas. 352 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,520 And then we piled up foraged wood around it to make it look 353 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,880 like that's where we kept our raw material for sculptures, 354 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,000 because you weren't allowed to live there. 355 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,800 And then under the arches were all the factories, dress 356 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,280 factories, shoe factories, handbag factories, which were a great source 357 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,080 of art materials for us. 358 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:15,760 And Hackney was just very working class, hardcore area. We many times 359 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,680 got chased through the park and, you know, harassed and stuff. 360 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,400 But it was no different to Hull really. 361 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,240 When we went into the Martello St studio, Bruce Lacey 362 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,040 was the caretaker there and his son, John Lacey, used to come and work 363 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,520 with him on his theatre productions. 364 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,800 And we got to know John really well, and he joined COUM 365 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,120 and brought his expertise on building synthesisers. 366 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,160 Testing, hello. Oh, listen. 367 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,600 When I first started working with COUM, more of the music was either 368 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,840 acoustic or guitars and bass. 369 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,360 But in terms of effects, units and synthesisers, 370 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:14,120 COUM weren't using those when I started working with them. 371 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,720 John was quite a catalyst in what we did, sound-wise. 372 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,040 I think he was the bridge from what we did as COUM - chaos - 373 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,320 to then having all this equipment 374 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,200 because he had theatre lights and everything. 375 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,600 The Oval House was about the COUMing Of Age, it was called, and that one 376 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,400 in particular was the very innocent views of sex. 377 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,640 It was about rites of passage. 378 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,400 I actually was in the control booth doing lighting and sound. 379 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,280 We did use other music, though. 380 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,960 We used John Cale, some Velvet Underground. 381 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,880 There was me on the swing, pink swing with a heart hole 382 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,120 cut in the seat of it. 383 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:01,400 But then I peed right across as I went along. 384 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,120 Jules Baker loaned us this wonderful cage. 385 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:06,400 Used on monsters for Doctor Who at the time. 386 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,520 And it had tendrils coming in all over it. 387 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:14,680 And I was in that as a model doing my modelling. But trapped 388 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,760 in this threatening environment. 389 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,360 And that was obviously drawn in from what she was doing 390 00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:24,200 by that point in her actual daily life, which was photography 391 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,480 for other people. 392 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,840 I found this competition for Men Only magazine for...for, 393 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,720 you know, nude photographs that, you know, and if you got accepted, 394 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,120 you'd get a prize and maybe you'd get some more work from it. 395 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:47,720 "Shall we enter it? Would you do it?" 396 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,440 And I said, "Yeah, let's try it." 397 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:51,680 And that was the opportunity. 398 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,960 So he presented really the opportunity for me 399 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,960 to start doing that, must give him credit for that. 400 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,400 And I took the first photographs of her. We'd done nude stuff before. 401 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,560 So you're kind of like open to being naked in front of people. 402 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,760 And also, for myself, intrigued by the whole sex market 403 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,160 and exploring my sexuality in that way, because it's not 404 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,040 a commitment to anybody and it's an experience. 405 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,680 And it fascinated me, not least because I started doing collages 406 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,200 using porn magazines. 407 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,040 It would be really nice for me to be cutting myself out 408 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:36,360 and using myself in collages, in found material, but genuinely 409 00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:41,360 found. If I enter that market and become that person 410 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:45,440 in the magazine that I'm cutting out, then that's a fantastic, 411 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,640 complete work to me. 412 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,720 I've entered it and brought it right back to my artwork again, 413 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,200 and it's an artwork from beginning to end. 414 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,800 We were trying to manipulate the media in some way. 415 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,880 That was one of the big ideas in COUM. 416 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,160 You know, either get yourself mentioned in the papers or lead 417 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,000 them down the garden path in some way or play with the way the media 418 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,360 would play with you. 419 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:09,240 It was fascinating because from the beginnings of those little black 420 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,040 and white porn mags and some colour ones off and on, 421 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,440 this whole thing sort of unfolded before me about what it is 422 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,360 to be a model for these sleazy little magazines. 423 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:22,360 It was a business. 424 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:23,720 And a big business. 425 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,040 I was in Greece, this is me in Greece, modelling for Men Only. 426 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,720 I did a lot of modelling for Laszlo Szabo. 427 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,280 He became a very good friend of mine and he photocopied one of them 428 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,240 and sent it to me and signed it. 429 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,960 This is part of the life forms artwork I did with a series 430 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,040 of about four or five sequences of photographs. 431 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,040 It shows the body position of me whatever arena I was working in, 432 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,680 one informed the other. 433 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,400 So we have the photograph I did with Szabo, the striptease 434 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,520 I was doing in Shepherd's Bush in London and the art performance, art 435 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,600 action I did at the Hayward Gallery. 436 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,800 I do this set of business cards, but they're like little artworks 437 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,760 because they fix in time certain important parts of my life. 438 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:19,200 And this was for one I did it for Tate, which, as you can see 439 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,320 again, I had to... 440 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,760 ..cross out the offending areas, but there you go. 441 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,920 It's ongoing, isn't it? 442 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,720 I didn't find feminism spoke for me at all. 443 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,080 In fact, I found it very divisive. 444 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,160 It would split me away from an area that I was really 445 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,320 enjoying exploring. 446 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:47,520 And I'd been to Gay Liberation Front in Notting Hill, and I'd seen 447 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,040 first-hand what it was like to be all-inclusive rather than divisive. 448 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,800 And that's what I liked, and I felt more affinity with than feminism 449 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,560 at that time. 450 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,840 I didn't hate men. 451 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,200 You know, I loved men, I didn't want to have to say I don't want men 452 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,040 in my life. 453 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,000 I understand the points completely, but I am actually out doing 454 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,560 there what you are prescribing, but in a different way. 455 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,400 I was in a position where I could explore who I was and do exactly 456 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,840 what I wanted to do. I had no responsibilities to anyone. 457 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,240 I didn't have to answer to anyone. 458 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,320 Maybe, Gen, but, 459 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,160 you know, that was part of a relationship and working out 460 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,520 what you are with each other and... 461 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,320 But I didn't find feminism sparked for me at all. 462 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,080 Catch them, catch them, catch them, catch them... 463 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,040 Don't waste it, don't waste it... 464 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,080 Sleazy was starting to get into the mould 465 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,240 of everything, and it was starting to change. 466 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,200 It became more sinister. 467 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,320 What are you wearing under that? 468 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,360 We met Sleazy when we did the COUMing Of Age 469 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,440 at the Oval House in London. 470 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,280 Having seen the show one night and then came to the cafe and sidled 471 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,120 up to us and said, "Hi, my name is Peter. 472 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,080 "I'm a photographer and I'd like to take photographs of your show. 473 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,720 "Is that OK with you?" 474 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,000 And yeah, that's why...when he became Sleazy, because I said 475 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,000 he was...the way he approached us was very sleazy. 476 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,000 And the fact that he approached us to take photographs of us naked. 477 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,280 He was interested in COUM, and he knew it was within his kind of 478 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,800 zone of alternative interests, shall we say. 479 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,320 So he was wanting to be a part of it, but also needing 480 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,840 to keep his foot in the Hypnosis camp because that's 481 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,280 how he earned a living. 482 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,720 He's working with Hypnosis, doing all these hyper expensive album 483 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,360 covers for hundreds of thousands of pounds for Pink Floyd 484 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,080 and LED Zeppelin, and all in the era of great overindulgence 485 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,480 and massive budgets. 486 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,120 He was just sort of gradually becoming friends. 487 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,120 He was happy taking photographs because he was a voyeur, Sleazy, 488 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,440 you know. It got to the point where I said, "Well, are you actually 489 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,040 "going to do anything or are you just coming here just to sort of get 490 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,640 "down and dirty now and again, you know?" 491 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,920 And then we discovered that he'd joined the Casualties Union 492 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,200 and that he could simulate epileptic fits and create 493 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,080 really realistic wounds. 494 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,720 So you'd have like rehearsals for disasters, so they had to make 495 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,240 it look real. 496 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,680 And that interested us in terms of the art actions as well, 497 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,720 because it was a really fantastic art form. 498 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,160 And we said, if you, you know, if you want to do something 499 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,640 with COUM, that would be interesting for you to do. 500 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,920 The first was Coumdensation Mucus at the Royal College of Art, 501 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,600 and in the video, 502 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,440 Sleazy appears to slice his arm open and then stitch 503 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,280 it up with the needle and thread. 504 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:12,440 And we do blood and milk and wine enemas - which are real - 505 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,520 and then urinate into a milk bottle and then masturbate. 506 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,400 And it still disturbs people when we show them... 507 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,000 HE CHUCKLES 508 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,000 ..for some strange reason. 509 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,560 Studio Of Lust, which were the three of us gradually becoming naked 510 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,800 and becoming entwined, which was something quite new for Sleazy 511 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,200 to be naked with a woman, cos he was gay. 512 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,320 So I was quite sensitive to that and careful how I positioned 513 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,160 myself, so I didn't freak him out completely. 514 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,080 That was his zone that he liked to be in, pushing himself as well. 515 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,080 It was really good to be with somebody who was other like me, 516 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,480 if that's a good phrase to put. 517 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,000 Bringing the base element of the human experience into a public 518 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,080 arena can shock people, but at the time I had such a long 519 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,360 time in that sphere of being naked and being at one with myself, 520 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:23,560 if you like, and with whatever my bodily functions were, it was me. 521 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,960 We are all the same. 522 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,840 And it's quite OK to share these things, rather than feel 523 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,040 that there's something we shouldn't talk about or discuss in public. 524 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:40,640 My personal belief is that you can do anything you want to yourself. 525 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,320 Body is your property. 526 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:43,680 It's not sacred. 527 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,560 It's not owned by society. 528 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,440 It's not owned by family. 529 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,880 It's not owned by laws and regulations. 530 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,640 It's yours to do with as you choose, 531 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,920 and to explore as you choose. 532 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,160 And for me, that's...that's enough. 533 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,320 There's enough there to keep you occupied for a very long time. 534 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:12,440 But the idea of then extending that out even voluntarily to other 535 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,560 people, it becomes problematic. 536 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,320 It was a party and Chris was doing a light show. 537 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,720 And then Chris and myself started discussing our interest 538 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,760 in synthesisers. And as he sort of entered our world... 539 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,080 ..John left. 540 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,440 I was working for so many different people doing soundtracks, doing 541 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:48,120 lighting, that I kind of felt I'd lost my way a bit and I thought 542 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,480 I needed just to recoup. 543 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,840 So, yeah, Chris joined us and he brought again, like John did, 544 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,720 he brought every bit of equipment he did at one point to the studio 545 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,720 and set it all up. And that was just like mind-blowing. 546 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,800 And I thought, you know, this is something totally different. 547 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:07,280 Never heard anything like it. 548 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,640 What we could produce with the assistance of Chris's knowledge 549 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,600 is going into new territory completely with sound. 550 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:20,880 When you're trying to truly change a society or behaviour or any part 551 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,920 of some social group... 552 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,640 ..you can't just use one strategy. You have to be really aware 553 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,120 of when the moment's gone and you have to switch. 554 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,320 Throbbing Gristle is Yorkshire slang for an erection. 555 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,040 Throbbing Gristle initially came from Les. That was just 556 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,840 a throwaway statement. 557 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,440 I don't know if I can say this on camera. 558 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,240 There used to be a big fishing fraternity in Hull, 559 00:34:51,240 --> 00:34:53,880 and that's their expression they used to use. 560 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,840 It did describe the way we played. 561 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,560 It was throbbing. And gristly, it was tough. 562 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,600 And we proved that nobody needed 563 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,800 to have any training to make successful radical new art. 564 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,760 It's proved that you can also have a successful, radical, 565 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,360 innovative band with people who can't play. 566 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,800 You have to go to first. 567 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,880 Sleazy wasn't into playing an instrument. 568 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,040 He couldn't get a note out. He did try. 569 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,520 He got a cornet and tried to play it and couldn't do it. 570 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,680 Passed it to me and I managed to do it. 571 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,640 Well, we don't want a drummer because that immediately takes 572 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,040 you into traditional rhythms. 573 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,880 The guitarist must not be able to play, and that was Cosey. 574 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,720 It was just through effects pedals, striking the guitar and then working 575 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,160 the sound from there. 576 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,960 And there was an old bass guitar lying around, 577 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,600 somebody had left there. 578 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,520 I think possibly the only one that played any instrument straight 579 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,400 was Gen's bass because he kept a rhythm with it. 580 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,640 And Chris was obviously on his synths and effects units 581 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,760 that he built. And Sleazy wanted to extend the tape recorder 582 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,400 experiments and cut-ups. 583 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,600 He'd got this Walkman, Sony Walkman. What Chris did with him 584 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,560 was he used them to build a sampler so that he could run tapes. 585 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,600 Then built them a little keyboard that was hooked up to it. 586 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,360 And then you just play. We jammed. 587 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,440 The timbre of the sounds, the frequencies and the volume... 588 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,160 ..that's what it was about. 589 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,560 It was just to sort of rebuild the notion of what music could be. 590 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,080 The direct connection between frequency and physical response 591 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,920 was something that we investigated in Throbbing Gristle quite a bit. 592 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,400 In doing so we were quite often physically sick or had optical 593 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,440 tunnelling effects and things that could be regarded as probably 594 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,480 not very good for one's health. 595 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,520 We discovered some really weird things to do with sort of high-level 596 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,960 sound and various sound waves. Using low frequency sine waves 597 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,440 through really good speakers, 598 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,920 as loud as you can get it does the strangest things to my knees. 599 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,000 It really does. 600 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,880 The ICA had another in its long-running, 601 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,840 "let's make you sick" series. 602 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,240 This was called Prostitution and featured all the tools 603 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:19,440 of the trade - and the leftovers. 604 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,920 1976. 605 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,280 We decided mutually that it was time for COUM Transmissions to end. 606 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:36,040 We'd already been rehearsing as TG since 1975. 607 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,240 We wanted to then try and see what happened if we inserted 608 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:41,760 it into the culture. 609 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,560 The Prostitution show started off with Ted Little, 610 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,720 who was then the director of the ICA, inviting us to do 611 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:52,560 a male art show there. 612 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,520 Quickly turned into something else as things do. 613 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,320 And during a conversation with him, I must have mentioned this idea, 614 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,760 and he said, "I'll do a retrospective." 615 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,200 So Prostitution became a retrospective of COUM. 616 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,520 And basically our exit from the art world. 617 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,920 Cosey had just done some modelling for a magazine called Curious. 618 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,000 There was a picture of her on a chaise longue with a blindfold 619 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,440 on and above it, 620 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,280 it just said "prostitution". 621 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,720 I thought, well, we're all prostitutes, really. 622 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:29,960 So I proposed it should be called Prostitution. 623 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,800 I decided that that would be where I present the magazines for the first 624 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,080 time. My magazines were put out the back in a kind of box 625 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,880 where they were slid in, you know, like Athena posters used to be. 626 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,960 And you'd pull them out to have a look, but you had to join 627 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,360 and become a member of the ICA first before you could see them. 628 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,480 It was kind of work around the laws of pornography. 629 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,480 We had props that we built, so we ended up with those 630 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,280 being exhibited as well and bits of costumes that Cosey had made 631 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,160 and bits of costumes that I'd worn. 632 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:11,200 I had this idea for these small sculptures called Tampax Romana. 633 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,240 The tampons were my used tampons. 634 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:15,520 I had been collecting for a while and we used them 635 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,200 in performances, again as part of that whole thing of showing 636 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,280 what womanhood is. 637 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,040 There was a copy of the News Of The World on a table... 638 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:32,640 ..and I just thought I wonder what would happen if we sent invites 639 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,840 to all the press. 640 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,400 Little did I realise what a furore it was going to cause. 641 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,920 And then we had the opening. 642 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,200 And lo and behold, all those editors and journalists 643 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,800 turned up and freaked. 644 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,680 We talked to Ted Little and said, we want music. 645 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,240 So we got the band Chelsea that became Generation X to play. 646 00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:01,640 And so a punk element sort of contingent came along to see them. 647 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:02,920 It was brilliant. 648 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:08,200 And a comedian, John Smith from Bridlington, who told dirty jokes. 649 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,080 And we had a stripper. 650 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,440 Why not have a stripper? Let's make it our party. 651 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,600 And then Throbbing Gristle played live to launch the band. 652 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,000 Everyone had been drinking a lot. 653 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,880 And Ian Hinchcliffe was there, was another quite extreme artist. 654 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,360 I remember there was a cluster of people and Ian was shouting at Gen 655 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,600 about something because I didn't get on. 656 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,640 Suddenly I saw stars, and the journalist from the Evening Standard 657 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,760 had hit me over the head with a pint beer glass. 658 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,600 And there was just like a huge fight on the floor 659 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,760 and Ted got kicked in the balls, had to go to hospital. 660 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,360 Gen, I took Gen to hospital because he thought he'd broken 661 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,320 his little finger and then we came back and cleared the gear away 662 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,880 into the van and we went home. 663 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:12,920 It was just like... 664 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,080 ..being stunned by some hand grenade, really, that gig. 665 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,880 And the newspapers went crazy. 666 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,160 And then the next like ten days or so handling all the press 667 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,120 and being hounded by them outside the house and the market 668 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,680 nearby, in the gallery being chased by them. 669 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,320 Being slagged off by Spare Rib, all that, I just didn't even 670 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,280 want to know. Being called the wreckers of civilisation 671 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,880 by Nicholas Fairbairn wasn't a real problem. 672 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,720 I don't think we're uncivilised. 673 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,520 In actual fact, I think we're more civilised 674 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,360 than some people 675 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,160 and some elements of society. 676 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,600 Monte Cazazza over there will be making the video cassette 677 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,800 of the whole proceedings. 678 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,440 There was a Canadian artist who called herself Anna Banana. 679 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,360 One day she wrote me this long letter and amongst the letter, 680 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,480 it said, "We met this awful human being, the worst person 681 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,120 "we've ever met. He calls himself Monte Cazazza." 682 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,320 And he'd send us all this information and photographs, 683 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,960 photocopied things that he'd been up to. 684 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,600 We were at this person's house talking and drinking wine, 685 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,000 and then he turned up and he had this small suitcase 686 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,040 and he opened the little case and it had a dead cat in it, roadkill. 687 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,680 And he had no fear at all because he had no... 688 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,400 ..no career hopes. 689 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,160 And he pulled out the cat, squirted lighter fuel on it, set it on fire 690 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,840 and then pulled out this gun and said, "You can't leave the room." 691 00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,280 And we just thought, "Wow, he sounds interesting. 692 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,920 "Sounds like my kind of guy." 693 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,720 He was there when industrial music got named. 694 00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:09,120 It was him that was saying, "Well, you keep saying industrial, Gen. 695 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,800 "So it's industrial music." And we went, "Yeah, you're right. 696 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,360 "It's industrial music." 697 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,400 It was industrious, there was a lot of research involved. 698 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,640 Chris was obviously very industrious with his technical experiments 699 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,320 and building equipment. 700 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,120 And that's where it came from with the irony of the factory, 701 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,760 which is where we were. 702 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,840 In London Fields park, which we were next to, there were the plague pits 703 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,360 from when the Black Plague happened. 704 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:46,200 And so hundreds of plague victims had been buried under the ground 705 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,600 in the park, and as we were in the basement, we were actually 706 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,760 at the same level as all the plague victims. 707 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,040 And I called it the Death Factory. 708 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,600 It was fairly on the cards that she was going to leave. 709 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:10,520 They'd fallen in love. 710 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,240 That can't be helped. 711 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:15,520 Me and Chris were together but trying not to be for the sake 712 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,480 of the band, and my relationship with Gen, which was in trouble 713 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:20,960 big time by then. 714 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,720 How are we going to cope with that now? 715 00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:25,640 You know, Gen's going to go off and do his thing. 716 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,240 You're going to be doing your thing. 717 00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:31,280 And someone like Gen, you know, he's got a lot of personality and a lot 718 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,560 of energy there, so he was a difficult man to be around. 719 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,960 And he could throw some serious, serious tantrums. 720 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,080 That sort of display of anger 721 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,120 can be quite frightening. 722 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,720 It was never going to be an easy parting, and there was a lot 723 00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:47,440 at stake. 724 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,200 We were much more focused by then and more serious 725 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,560 about the things we were interested in and what we wanted 726 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,600 to communicate to people. 727 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,880 It wasn't frivolous any more, and neither was the climate 728 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,840 in the country, and I think that had a lot to do with it. 729 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,040 We met Al Ackerman - Blaster - who we'd been doing mail art 730 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,680 exchanges with and who in the end ended up writing the lyrics 731 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:14,240 to Hamburger Lady. 732 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:15,480 He'd been in Vietnam... 733 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,040 ..as a medic, and he was working on the night shift in a hospital 734 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,800 in Eugene, and there was a woman who'd been in a car crash. 735 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,320 Been burnt so badly, she was known around the wards as 736 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:30,760 the Hamburger Lady. 737 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,280 Her ears had got burned off and she couldn't hear, her eyes 738 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,520 had been melted and gone, so she couldn't see. 739 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,600 And her throat and tongue had been so damaged, 740 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,600 she couldn't speak. 741 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,080 And we thought, what would it sound like 742 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,800 in that ward, you know? 743 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,440 And it became probably one of the, strangely enough, the most popular 744 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,520 songs we ever did. 745 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,280 People weren't sort of turned off by it. 746 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,960 They were...they were driven to a place of compassion. 747 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,520 # Medical advances... # 748 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,840 There was always an element for most of TG when I was writing 749 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:19,560 all the lyrics of it being closer at times to a newspaper. The darkness 750 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:24,120 in TG came from the time, the political state of the time, 751 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,760 and also from our own personal histories. 752 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,840 When I was growing up, there was the Moors murders. 753 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,040 And then, of course, you go from there in the '60s 754 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,120 and there's Charles Manson. 755 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,960 There was obviously the post-war thing going on and our parents not 756 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,800 talking about it because they were so traumatised. 757 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,280 People always go on about the Nazi element of TG, which just wasn't 758 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:49,880 there at all. 759 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,480 It was just that we were willing to discuss that thing. 760 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,080 Human beings have done horrendous things to one another. 761 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,040 Put it out there for discussion. 762 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,120 It's not something you should hide away. 763 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,160 Why is there this unwritten boundary or a limitation 764 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,920 on what you can discuss in a lyric? 765 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,840 Just because you mention it doesn't mean you approve of it. 766 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,720 You know, journalists write about all sorts of terrible things 767 00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,400 and they're not accused of endorsing it. 768 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,560 People had started looking up to us for some reason, 769 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,560 like we had all the answers. We didn't. We were just posing them. 770 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,960 At the beginning, we did lots of weird stuff, like once 771 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,000 we had just big mirrors in front of us. That made people angry 772 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,400 because they couldn't see us. 773 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,280 We did another one where we had halogen lamps along the front 774 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:44,160 of the stage on the audience, so that they were blinded. 775 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,680 But we could see them, you know? 776 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,960 But there's only so many ways you can play with the audience/band 777 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,120 dynamic before it becomes just trickery. 778 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:06,400 Yeah, Oundle. 779 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,520 Some guy had heard about us and written to us and said, 780 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,720 "I could get my music teacher to book you." 781 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:18,080 We said, "We'll come and play as long as we can have a tour of the 782 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:22,200 "school and have lunch with the boys in the huge dining area." 783 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,400 It was very strange but interesting because... I mean, Sleazy knew 784 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,720 what it was like because he'd gone to public school 785 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:30,480 and Gen did to some extent, 786 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,200 and we just did what we did 787 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,920 and they really didn't know what hit them. 788 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,240 And in the end, they started singing Jerusalem. 789 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:42,680 It was quite amazing. 790 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,360 Beautiful moment, full of testosterone. 791 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:43,200 MUSIC: Don't Do As You're Told, Do As You Think 792 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,480 Monte said something interesting, he said, "You know they all want 793 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,400 "you to die on stage, don't you?" 794 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,480 I said, "What?" 795 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,080 He said, "It would suit everybody 796 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,000 "if you took it so far, you would... ..you died on stage. 797 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,040 "Stay alive out of spite, Gen." 798 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,760 I'd never thought of it that way that you could actually end up a bit 799 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,920 too much like a sideshow. "What will Gen do to Gen next?" 800 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,200 And in the end, we're all going to watch Gen die. 801 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,040 No, that's not what we're trying to say. 802 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,640 # Persuasion... # 803 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,600 No, I always thought of TG as a concept that I wanted to see 804 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:35,320 if we could change music and change popular culture and give it some 805 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,040 extra weight and intelligence 806 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,320 and new systems of expression. 807 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:43,960 And it worked. 808 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:45,080 We did that. 809 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:52,280 But suddenly, it was part-time for three out of four. We felt 810 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,080 that it became a pastiche of itself and we'd taken 811 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,720 it as far as we wanted to take it without it becoming some kind 812 00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:04,640 of demon or beast that was not totally within our control. 813 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,560 I think we'd...we'd finish with the, you know, shouting 814 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,160 in the face and hitting people on the head with a hammer 815 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,120 kind of approach. 816 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,880 And now we were more interested in exploring areas that almost 817 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,840 we had no right to enter. 818 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,000 You know, real music, like Giorgio Moroder territory kind of thing. 819 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,480 And even Abba. 820 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:31,440 But it interested us in how we could approach it and do 821 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:32,720 it our way. 822 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:37,560 One of these myths that seems to circulate is that TG ended in 823 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:42,480 1981 because of bedroom politics and because I was jealous of Chris. 824 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,840 But I wasn't jealous of Chris. 825 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,480 When we were in the studio recording, 826 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:50,880 it was still really great. 827 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,960 Yeah, because that was important to, I think, 828 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,640 to all of us, including Gen. 829 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,800 You know, that whatever you decide 830 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,160 to do in your extracurricular time, 831 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,720 you could say, I felt should have been kept separate 832 00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:10,800 and could have been. I mean, we were all grown ups, you know? 833 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,080 And, you know, we're going to get into dodgy territory here. 834 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,680 I don't want to go into it. Sure. 835 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:44,480 Can you tell us a bit about some of the concepts 836 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,280 that you're dealing with? 837 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,760 No. 838 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:54,920 # When all the numbers swim together and all the shadow settle 839 00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,360 # Windows forced open shut again, a fly trap and a petal 840 00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:03,760 # My eyes burn and claws rush to fill them 841 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:08,600 # And in the morning I fall in love with the light. # 842 00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:53,400 # Sometimes I felt I had to run away... # 843 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,080 Mute Records wanted us to... 844 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:03,960 They put feelers out. 845 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,640 Would it be at all possible for us to regroup to publicise 846 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,120 their release of 24 Hours on CD? 847 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:14,680 To be really frank, 848 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,400 I still thought, would it just become like it was last time? 849 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,000 And I'm sure they thought exactly the same thing, 850 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,400 but we all decided to see. 851 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,440 And so it took place. 852 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:27,360 When we did the Astoria, 853 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,480 that just totally blew me away. 854 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:30,800 When the cheer went up, 855 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,680 when we came out, I didn't quite know what to do. 856 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,880 It was one of those moments where you look behind you like someone 857 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,360 else is there that they're cheering for. 858 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,400 I had no idea that we'd had that effect on people, and such 859 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,840 a wide range of age groups as well, wasn't just the people 860 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,080 that were around when we first did it. 861 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,600 And that was good because it more or less said to me 862 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,920 that it functioned well at its time, 863 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,040 and since. 864 00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:01,120 this is a band called Throbbing Gristle - Chris, Cosey, 865 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,080 Sleazy and me. 866 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,920 It's been almost 23 years to the day 867 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,720 since we played together. 868 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,280 Wouldn't you just know it? 869 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,040 Oh, it's so hard trying to do this after so long. 870 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:28,720 # There's never a way 871 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,360 # To convince people... # 872 00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:40,640 The first time we went to the studio together after such 873 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,920 a long time, after 20 years or more, 874 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:48,560 we fitted in, we slotted in together and gelled and produced music 875 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,920 within minutes, and it just seemed like we'd never been away. 876 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:57,200 It was like being in a time warp or something. As it went by, 877 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,720 it developed and we did more albums that were new music 878 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:02,760 that were equally as interesting. 879 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,960 So it just was one of those things, 880 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,320 it would have mutated naturally if it kept going. 881 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,560 The music of Throbbing Gristle featuring Peter Christopherson, 882 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,000 who has died aged 55. 883 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,760 There's a part of me that wasn't totally surprised, 884 00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,720 because he'd lived a life of massive indulgence, 885 00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:26,120 of anything and everything 886 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:32,160 that could take him into new dimensions and delirious realms 887 00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,800 and then his strange, twisted imagination. 888 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,040 Maybe that's why I called him Sleazy. 889 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,440 You've got a kind of a few conflicting memories, 890 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,280 but there is a truth in there, which is all about using 891 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,680 your imagination, being open to experience, 892 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,680 not being afraid to experiment. 893 00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:59,040 It's allowable to be sad, to be...or happy, to find humour 894 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,120 in something you shouldn't find humour in because it's like a 895 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,120 safety valve. And that's what we are. 896 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,520 Try and find a way to come to terms with being alive and the strange 897 00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,840 mystery of being alive, but also the mortality. 898 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:18,160 And for me, art should deal with those, the great mysteries. 899 00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,200 And that's why we thought life and art are inseparable. 900 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:26,120 You know, it's not just random and death's not the end, you know, 901 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:29,880 but I can't explain why I believe that or why. 902 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:31,400 To me, you just know.